Prokovich game

mitsun · **#101**

freegame wrote:

@ mitsun
provided that up to :b1:

is the actual game,
don't you think they will put up more of a fight?
It seems very passive to each take one side...
I also like black in your diagram, so I guess white
will start a fight somehow, and not allow what you suggested.

Yes, it is unlikely to proceed so simply, but I think this is what B is aiming for, so I think B1 will be the next move. After that, I don't think W can permit B to play at W2, so some splitting move like W2 seems necessary. After that, all other bets are off

(However, I do think the peaceful diagram I showed is fair for both sides, partly because the captured W stone still has more aji than the captured B stone.)

Magicwand · **#102**

dfan wrote:

Magicwand wrote:

it's been 20 years since i studied japanese professional game. i think next few sequence is above...

Do you think this game is Japanese?

yes! chinese and korean player do not play double 3-3 point.
i only saw them in japanese game 30 years ago.

emeraldemon · **#103**

Magicwand wrote:

dfan wrote:

Magicwand wrote:

it's been 20 years since i studied japanese professional game. i think next few sequence is above...

Do you think this game is Japanese?

yes! chinese and korean player do not play double 3-3 point.
i only saw them in japanese game 30 years ago.

Hmm... Yi-Setol played it against An Cho-yeong not that long ago:

[sgf-full]http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=325[/sgf-full]

This isn't the game we're reviewing tho. For what it's worth, he lost that game.

Joaz Banbeck · **#104**

freegame wrote:

Joaz Banbeck posted almost every possible follow-up.

I was trying to illustrate a general idea of the proper direction of play. The important thing was not the exact location, but the line of reasoning that leads to that location.

After finding some time to examine the details, I like this one best:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm17 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . a . , . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . X . O . 3 b . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

'A' is too high, and white slides underneath. 'B' is too close and gets run over, I think.

Magicwand · **#105**

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

freegame wrote:

Joaz Banbeck posted almost every possible follow-up.

I was trying to illustrate a general idea of the proper direction of play. The important thing was not the exact location, but the line of reasoning that leads to that location.

After finding some time to examine the details, I like this one best:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm17 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . a . , . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . X . O . 3 b . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

'A is too high, and white slides underneath. 'B is too close and gets run over, I think.

i read all the reasoning...
but i have this feeling that move 19 is wrong.
i dont know why i get this feeling and can not explain what is wrong with this move.
maybe someone stronger can explain why i get this feeling.

Joaz Banbeck · **#106**

Because you are not Japanese.

flOvermind · **#107**

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm17 Another bad sequence for black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . X . O . 7 5 3 O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Really? With white crawling on the second line? Ok, black still has to defend the weakness, so white gets sente, but still I don't really like white in this diagram...

Why do you consider that bad for black?

topazg · **#108**

I agree, a continuation as follows looks quite ok to me:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm25 Another bad sequence for black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . 9 7 5 . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . X 6 O 3 X X X O 2 . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . 8 . . 4 O O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

amnal · **#109**

topazg wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm17 Another bad sequence for black? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 7 1 . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . X . O . 9 5 3 O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 8 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

With the 3-3 point, you must be like a spring. It's fine to sit tight in your little corner, but if black tries to squash you too hard you have to spring up in his face.

I would try to find a way to play like this, to cut black. If white can do so, black has a group with a known weakness and a new weak group with a cutting point. I don't think white should be too concernet about linking with all his stones straight away.

I could well be wrong, but I feel that something like this is a valid line of play.

dfan · **#110**

I think Joaz was the first to see this coming, nice job. I'm learning a lot from this game as we go, and I already know the moves!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm19 ACTUAL GAME: Move 19 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . X . O . 1 . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Tooveli · **#111**

My thoughts:

I think it's obvious that White has to come out with the corner stone and there seem to be only two possible moves.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ a or b? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . b X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . X . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If white plays a I imagine the game to proceed as mitsun previously suggested:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Even? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Y . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . 4 2 . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . X . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In this position, I think I would take Black, but the game is close. Black seems slightly behind on territory (assuming komi = 5.5 or 6.5) because the bottom is undercut, but it's Black's move, the left side for White is not territory yet and Black's sacrifice stone looks to have a little more aji than White's.

If White plays b then things get complicated. I imagine the sequence to 5 (below).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Complicated $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . 5 . 3 . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . X . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This looks better for White than the previous diagram so I think White will play b next.

Joaz Banbeck · **#112**

Tooveli wrote:

My thoughts:
I think it's obvious that White has to come out with the corner stone and there seem to be only two possible moves.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ a or b? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . b X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . X . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I agree.

Tooveli wrote:

If white plays a I imagine the game to proceed as mitsun previously suggested:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Even? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Y . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . 4 2 . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . X . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In this position, I think I would take Black, but the game is close. Black seems slightly behind on territory (assuming komi = 5.5 or 6.5) because the bottom is undercut, but it's Black's move, the left side for White is not territory yet and Black's sacrifice stone looks to have a little more aji than White's.

There is no way that white will let this happen. The current fight is still about H3. For white to allow :b4:

is conceding the fight to black.

Tooveli wrote:

If White plays b then things get complicated. I imagine the sequence to 5 (below).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Complicated $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . 5 . 3 . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . X . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This looks better for White than the previous diagram so I think White will play b next.

Black will not play :b4:

in the diagram above. The bottom is way more important to black than the side. He will play like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 4 . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . X . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Again, black is trying to keep M3 weak so that H3 cannot work.

Tooveli · **#113**

To Joaz: I'm surprised about your direction analysis - could you explain why you think the bottom is more important? I was thinking that the bottom is undercut by C2 so not all that valuable whereas if Black splits the right then R13 becomes a joint attack and extension from the shimari which is good for Black.

I also don't understand 4 in your diagram.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 2 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . d . 4 . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . b . X . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

How do you continue after a? If you cut, then White extends and the fight looks good for White. If you do anything else then White connects and it feels like White has been squeezed out while Black got bad shape on both sides (right is heavier for black and the stone on the bottom has plenty of room eg. b,c,d). I think that once Black plays 2 he wants to follow up at a.

If the bottom is more important, then I think black should play as below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . 2 . . a . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . X . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

but this is very painful because now White doesn't have to play a (like the variation with a before 1) and can play b instead if it's better (I think it is).

I'm ready (and waiting) for the professionals to prove me completely wrong here

Dusk Eagle · **#114**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 4 . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . X . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I agree with Tooveli here. :b4:

seems too thin, and black will end up hurt.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . 4 . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . X . O . B . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If anything, I think it's more likely that black will play like this, but I still don't really like this for black.

dfan · **#115**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 ACTUAL GAME: Move 20 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . a X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . X . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm curious how play would have proceeded if White played at a instead since that seemed to be what people here were fearing more (as Black).

Joaz Banbeck · **#116**

Ok, black got what he wanted: a chance to play around O3/P3 without white responding with M5. Now he can go after M3. The standard technique, of course, is to come from the weak side and push the victim toward the stronger stones. So black will expand off of O3.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . 2 . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . X . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

seems the most severe.

Joaz Banbeck · **#117**

As I mentioned earlier, letting black have this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . 4 2 . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . X . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...is just giving him what he wants.

So white will contest like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . 3 2 . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . X . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

dfan · **#118**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 ACTUAL GAME: Move 21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . 1 . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . X . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think everyone predicted the move that was played, but the commentary thought the following might have been better:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Variation $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 1 . 2 X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , 3 . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . X . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

dfan · **#119**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm22 ACTUAL GAME: Move 22 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . 1 X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . X . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Joaz Banbeck · **#120**

BTW, in case nobody has said it...
THANK YOU DFAN
This was a great idea.

Prokovich game

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