The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2

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dany
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The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2

Post by dany »

Shin Jinseo (Black) vs. Park Geunho (White) http://go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/110919
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . a O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Black did not find the best answer and made a move to "a"
pwaldron
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Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2

Post by pwaldron »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X b . . X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . a O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Looks like b picks up an extra liberty to win the capturing race.
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Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2

Post by jlt »

Just Q12? If White plays Q18 or Q19 next then Black O19.
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Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2

Post by kvasir »

Maybe I figured it out?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . 1 X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 O X O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
:b1: was what I thought it was but I didn't post because it didn't look much better than removing a liberty. Now I think :b3: is the key to get it to work.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm4 Black wins capturing race.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 4 1 3 X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 2 O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm4 Resistance is futile.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 O 6 3 5 X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 2 O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c It is really forced, right?
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 3 1 X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 2 . O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
dany
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Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2

Post by dany »

pwaldron wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X b . . X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . a O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Looks like b picks up an extra liberty to win the capturing race.
Yes
dany
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Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2

Post by dany »

jlt wrote:Just Q12? If White plays Q18 or Q19 next then Black O19.
Yes
dany
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Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2

Post by dany »

kvasir wrote:Maybe I figured it out?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . 1 X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 O X O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
:b1: was what I thought it was but I didn't post because it didn't look much better than removing a liberty. Now I think :b3: is the key to get it to work.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm4 Black wins capturing race.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 4 1 3 X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 2 O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm4 Resistance is futile.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 O 6 3 5 X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 2 O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c It is really forced, right?
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 3 1 X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 2 . O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Great idea! And the best black response. Black +30 (the last diagram)
Kirby
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Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2

Post by Kirby »

I was told that this was an error in the move order of transcribing of the game. Apparently, after white P9 in the game, B L17, W T14, B T17, W Q19 was the order actually played in the game.
be immersed
dany
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Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2

Post by dany »

Kirby wrote:I was told that this was an error in the move order of transcribing of the game. Apparently, after white P9 in the game, B L17, W T14, B T17, W Q19 was the order actually played in the game.
Actually, there was an error in the game record.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AagL0YHjtpc&t=2194s
John Fairbairn
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Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2

Post by John Fairbairn »

A somewhat different aspect. The Japanese Ryusei uses 30s/move + 10x1m. The Korean Ryusei (this Yongseong) uses 30 min each play 20s Fischer increment.

How do the two systems compare when it comes to tricky capturing races like this?
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Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2

Post by jlt »

Assuming it's a game with 240 moves and both players use all their time, both last at most 140 minutes. However, players at the Ryusei competition probably move many times before 30 seconds so the Yongseong looks more comfortable. Anyway in the mentioned game, both players had more that 20 minutes left on their clock.
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Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2

Post by John Fairbairn »

Just tidying up the latest GoGoD update for SmartGo, I noticed something that does not seem to have been mentioned yet.

The capturing race that features in the game here (Pak v Sin) appeared previously (2023-07-28) in the 3rd Korean Women's Strongest (Losers' Section Final) beyween O Yu-chin and Kim Eun-chi. It would appear that it already has something akin to joseki status!
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