Curious position
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Knotwilg
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Re: Curious position
Nice - halfway the analysis I had already forgotten about the non-existence of the confirmation
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Gérard TAILLE
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Re: Curious position
As soon as you have discovered a strange position you can often build a problem where the first move of the solution could be a very strange move. Here it is:
Area counting. Komi 5.5 I like this kind of problem.
Area counting. Komi 5.5 I like this kind of problem.
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Gérard TAILLE
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Re: Curious position
Maybe I miss something because it seems simple and in addition I see two solutions.dany wrote:Area counting. Komi -6.5 (negative)
The point is the following : to win white must capture the black group in the upper left corner. By capturing this group immediatly, white gives black a ko threat and black will capture the white stones in the bottom right corner. It remains only the two dame between the white and black living groups in the center. To win white has only to occupy these two dame which is quite simple: instead of forcing black to begin a ko, white can simply begin herself this ko:
I think white can also win by beginning in the upper left corner but the short sequence above is obviously simpler.
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ez4u
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Re: Curious position
After finally understanding the point about the rulesGérard TAILLE wrote:As soon as you have discovered a strange position you can often build a problem where the first move of the solution could be a very strange move. Here it is:
Area counting. Komi 5.5 I like this kind of problem.
, I think this version is very nice!Dave Sigaty
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Gérard TAILLE
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Re: Curious position
Thank you ez4u.ez4u wrote:After finally understanding the point about the rulesGérard TAILLE wrote:As soon as you have discovered a strange position you can often build a problem where the first move of the solution could be a very strange move. Here it is:
Area counting. Komi 5.5 I like this kind of problem.
BTW, do somebody know a (professionnal) game, played under area counting rules, in which the following scheme appears? This configuration seems very interesting, especially for black, and I would be very interested to see how professionnal can use its potential which spreads all over the board till the very very end of the game.
Re: Curious position
This variant may be too specific, but similar unremovable kos, something like the original sending-3-returning-1 might have occurred somewhere, maybe from an ignored threat. But pattern search for such is hard without an exact pattern of outer stones.Gérard TAILLE wrote:do somebody know a (professionnal) game, played under area counting rules, in which the following scheme appears
Btw, L/D confirmation was mentioned earlier, but the rules issue here is not confirmation itself - it is the local view in it. The pass-for-ko rule of J89 removes ko considerations from hypothetical play. An imaginary confirmation with normal ko (the obvious first step of any analysis) could find that these stones are not capturable without taking (enabling) a loss elsewhere, so they are alive (like bent4 + unremovable threat, or these). The tricky part is top right W 6 stones in first example, where the "loss elsewhere" is subtle and seems hard to recognise formally with a simple enough rule (enabling de-enabling).
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Gérard TAILLE
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Re: Curious position
Yes Yann, with the position allowing the sending-3-returning-1 you mentionned you can build the same kind of position:jann wrote:This variant may be too specific, but similar unremovable kos, something like the original sending-3-returning-1 might have occurred somewhere, maybe from an ignored threat. But pattern search for such is hard without an exact pattern of outer stones.Gérard TAILLE wrote:do somebody know a (professionnal) game, played under area counting rules, in which the following scheme appears
Btw, L/D confirmation was mentioned earlier, but the rules issue here is not confirmation itself - it is the local view in it. The pass-for-ko rule of J89 removes ko considerations from hypothetical play. An imaginary confirmation with normal ko (the obvious first step of any analysis) could find that these stones are not capturable without taking (enabling) a loss elsewhere, so they are alive (like bent4 + unremovable threat, or these). The tricky part is top right W 6 stones in first example, where the "loss elsewhere" is subtle and seems hard to recognise formally with a simple enough rule (enabling de-enabling).
Area counting. Komi 7.5 BTW the black configuration in the bottom right corner seems here better (for black) than the one I proposed in my original problem.
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Gérard TAILLE
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Re: Curious position
On the same theme I managed to build a very surprising position with an original use of the sending 3 - return 1 configuration (in this position you can count 45 black stones and 45 white stones).
Under japanese rules the game can be stopped there but I assume area counting and komi 5.5 Do you see how black can win?
Did you already see such mechanism or is it new for you?
I hope I did not miss something!
Under japanese rules the game can be stopped there but I assume area counting and komi 5.5 Do you see how black can win?
Did you already see such mechanism or is it new for you?
I hope I did not miss something!
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dany
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Re: Curious position
Black easy winGérard TAILLE wrote:On the same theme I managed to build a very surprising position with an original use of the sending 3 - return 1 configuration (in this position you can count 45 black stones and 45 white stones).
Under japanese rules the game can be stopped there but I assume area counting and komi 5.5 Do you see how black can win?
Did you already see such mechanism or is it new for you?
I hope I did not miss something!
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Gérard TAILLE
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Re: Curious position
Oops you are right Dany. I am stupid, I miss this move. I will try to improve the position in order to apply my idea. Thank you Dany for having take some time on this position.dany wrote:Black easy winGérard TAILLE wrote:On the same theme I managed to build a very surprising position with an original use of the sending 3 - return 1 configuration (in this position you can count 45 black stones and 45 white stones).
Under japanese rules the game can be stopped there but I assume area counting and komi 5.5 Do you see how black can win?
Did you already see such mechanism or is it new for you?
I hope I did not miss something!
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Gérard TAILLE
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Re: Curious position
Dany, after you found a simple way of winning with my previous position I also considered the position above you suggested.dany wrote:Area counting. Komi 16.5
I have now in mind some other improvements but let's take first this position above.
First of all I do not see how you can win with a komi 16.5. Do you really confirm this result? For me I need a komi 7.5 in order to win. I must have still missed a good black move.
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dany
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Re: Curious position
I checked the result with Katago and I still think that Black will win with Komi 16.5.Gérard TAILLE wrote:Dany, after you found a simple way of winning with my previous position I also considered the position above you suggested.dany wrote:Area counting. Komi 16.5
I have now in mind some other improvements but let's take first this position above.
First of all I do not see how you can win with a komi 16.5. Do you really confirm this result? For me I need a komi 7.5 in order to win. I must have still missed a good black move.
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Gérard TAILLE
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Re: Curious position
Can you please show me Dany in order for me to know where I am wrong? If you agree you take black stones and I try to defend with white. It's your turn.dany wrote:I checked the result with Katago and I still think that Black will win with Komi 16.5.Gérard TAILLE wrote:Dany, after you found a simple way of winning with my previous position I also considered the position above you suggested.dany wrote:Area counting. Komi 16.5
I have now in mind some other improvements but let's take first this position above.
First of all I do not see how you can win with a komi 16.5. Do you really confirm this result? For me I need a komi 7.5 in order to win. I must have still missed a good black move.