Oops, if "M_GOTE > M_B,SENTE, M_W,SENTE" then, providing no other options exist, the position looks like a seki.RobertJasiek wrote: My definition, e.g., in [22] is:
"M_GOTE > M_B,SENTE, M_W,SENTE"
Because I have already explained...Gérard TAILLE wrote:you disagree but you do not want to explain why you disagree! Why do you take such negative attitude?
For the simplest tree case, there is our (Francisco Criado, I, Bill Spight) theorem in [22] of non-existence of local double sente! So the only question is if something more complicated exists, possibly involving ko. However, the history of go and the history of go research have not produced any promising shape or CGT tree candidate yet. The closest attempts are (my) doubly ambiguous shapes with equalities in the value comparisons or my gote that every traditionalist would have perceived as double sente but whose values are just borderline attempts. If you disregard the web archives and literature, reinvent them (easy enough and a good exercise to eventually find your dream "counter"-example, if any exists)!Gérard TAILLE wrote:Do you know a position which is not a seki and for which we have "M_GOTE > M_B,SENTE, M_W,SENTE"?
RobertJasiek wrote:Because I have already explained...Gérard TAILLE wrote:you disagree but you do not want to explain why you disagree! Why do you take such negative attitude?
or 
by a tenuki?OC but assume I impose these specific black moves (even if they are not the best one). My question concerns ONLY white moves : are these white moves the best one?RobertJasiek wrote:No, the white moves depend on the black moves!
What is this position (Francisco Criado, I, Bill Spight)?RobertJasiek wrote:For the simplest tree case, there is our (Francisco Criado, I, Bill Spight) theorem in [22] of non-existence of local double sente! So the only question is if something more complicated exists, possibly involving ko. However, the history of go and the history of go research have not produced any promising shape or CGT tree candidate yet. The closest attempts are (my) doubly ambiguous shapes with equalities in the value comparisons or my gote that every traditionalist would have perceived as double sente but whose values are just borderline attempts. If you disregard the web archives and literature, reinvent them (easy enough and a good exercise to eventually find your dream "counter"-example, if any exists)!
The (initial position of the) general ordinary game tree of depth 2.Gérard TAILLE wrote:What is this position
In your image, you write three names but we are not the authors of its tree! You are so write your name instead!sente%20vs%20yose.jpg
According to your post https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=277835#p277835 this tree was created by Francisco Criado and I understood you produced great and surely interested work on this specific position, in cooperation with Bill Spight. For that reason I associated your three names to this position. I mentionned this position only because the sente options and gote options are here quite difficult to handle. I am quite surprised you do not remember this interesting position.RobertJasiek wrote:In your image, you write three names but we are not the authors of its tree! You are so write your name instead!
As to the contents of the tree, I do not solve all your problems. Analyse your own tree, and then we can discuss your analysis.
RobertJasiek wrote:1 and 5 not necessarily. If there is an important ko, 1 or 5 at d might better as negative threat. 3 at 4 I have not checked carefully.
(I assume you assume that White cannot invade the black territory.)
and are the best answers to black moves (on contrary these black moves may not be necessarily the best black moves!).I see. There has been my misunderstanding of what tree you referred to. I thought you meant the tree of the theorem of non-existence of local double sente. Now I understand you mean Francisco's example related to making a hypothesis. This example was in text annotation instead of graphical tree representation so I have not recognised it. Now I need to check whether indeed it is. Its analysis is quite difficult so I need to reread its study carefully before I can confirm / reject your specific question about it.Gérard TAILLE wrote:According to your post https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=277835#p277835 this tree was created by Francisco Criado and I understood you produced great and surely interested work on this specific position, in cooperation with Bill Spight. For that reason I associated your three names to this position. I mentionned this position only because the sente options and gote options are here quite difficult to handle. I am quite surprised you do not remember this interesting position.RobertJasiek wrote:In your image, you write three names but we are not the authors of its tree! You are so write your name instead!
As to the contents of the tree, I do not solve all your problems. Analyse your own tree, and then we can discuss your analysis.
Coming back to the tree I showed in my post https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=280548#p280548 you answer was that the position is not a double sente. I agree with you but that was not my question. I never suggest this position could be a double sente position.
My question was the following: according to your theory are black b and white d both sente options?
Code: Select all
C:= {0|-11}; D2:= {0|-2}; T2:= C + D2; D4:= {0|-4}; T4:= C + D4Code: Select all
> T2.Temperature
11/2
> T4.Temperature
11/2Please clarify: do you mean a late endgame or early endgame position?dany wrote:Robert, how apply your theorems for these positions?
While I use temperature for the environment's ambient temperature, I am unsure about your intended meaning of temperature here. Ambient, local or global temperature? Or move value? If you mean the local temperatures of either sum of local endgames, I do not want to apply the definition of "local temperature" with its cooling and infinitesimals.It's funny that T2 and T4 temperaturesCode: Select all
C:= {0|-11}; D2:= {0|-2}; T2:= C + D2; D4:= {0|-4}; T4:= C + D4
I have not tried to understand 11/2 yet but as to your question if you mean the ambient temperature T: it is of only the largest region C = {0|-11} and is T = (0 - (-11)) / 2 = 5 1/2 calculated as the gote move value of C.Are T2 and T4 Temperature Regions?Code: Select all
> T2.Temperature 11/2 > T4.Temperature 11/2
Your attached image in https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.p ... 71#p280571Gérard TAILLE wrote:[img][/img]