Japanese Castle Games questions

[mccccc]

Hello!
Is it OK if I post here some questions concerning the translation of Castle Games sometimes?
For now, I came across 2 sentences from 2 games's commentaries. Did I translate them correctly?

1. 本局有打挂后于户田山城守宅续弈
After the suspension, the game continued at Todayama Castle.

2. 本局打挂后, 于松平日向守宅续弈。
After the suspension, the game continued at the house of Matsudairu Hyuga (Governor of Hyuga Province).

[mccccc]

I read this one (chinese 2016 edition).

[John Fairbairn]

More context would help, but at first glance it looks wrong.

1. 本局有打挂后于户田山城守宅续弈
After the suspension, the game continued at Todayama Castle.

No such castle (I think), and the "residence" 宅 part is omitted. 户田山城守 was Lord Toda of Yamashiro. Toda was a daimyo family in charge of Yamashiro Province (now part of Kyoto). Yamashiro is actually a corruption of Yama-ushiro "beyond the mountain" but someone (an emperor, I think) renamed it Yamashiro (castle formed by a mountain) because that area created a sort of natural fortress.

2. 本局打挂后, 于松平日向守宅续弈。
After the suspension, the game continued at the house of Matsudairu Hyuga (Governor of Hyuga Province).

Passable but not grand enough. The daimyo lords were hereditary local rulers, not civil-service appointed governors. And 'house' is too "cheap". The two places referred to here would be grand "residences" or "mansions" in Edo, nestling round the Shogun's castle. All the daimyo lords were obliged to be there much of their time, with expensive retinues, so that the Shogun could simultaneously keep an eye on them and bankrupt them. And it's Matsudaira, not Matsudairu, a VERY famous name in Japanese history - it essentially denoted a close familial relationship to the Tokugawa clan. It was a Matsudaira lord who held the first go tournament in Japan in 1835, in Jowa's time, in which the famous blood-vomiting game occurred.

From memory, the only other castle apart from Edo Castle used for castle games was Nijo Castle in Kyoto, and that was just for the very first game , in 1626.

[mccccc]

Thanks a lot.
As for Todayama Castle, I thought about this one
https://kojousi.sakura.ne.jp/kojousi.todayama.htm

[mccccc]

The second sentence above is from the 45th Game's commentary. But in older edition of the book I found extra sentence.

十二月十五日赐予井上道砂因硕和本因坊迹目道的十人扶持的待遇。

Rather strange when trying to translate "December 15 granted the treatment of support to the ten men of Inoue Dosa Inseki and Honinbo Doteki"

I'm looking forward to clarifying some extra info..

The info of SGF file of this game tells us about the date 30.11.1685, but the book says "十一月三日弈于御城" - 03.11.
Moreover, as I understand, 弈于御城 means "played in Shogun's castle". But in some previous games' commentaries I came across 弈于秀忠公御前 and
弈于织田信长公御前
I guess 公 means "in front of [castle]", but as for 御前 I think it's "go zen" https://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/word/御前_%28ごぜん%29/

When I continue to investigate, I see, that the Contents of the book include 御前.
第一章 御城棋以前的御前棋(第1局——第9局)……………(1) I guess, it's "Before Castle Games"
第二章 御城棋(第1局——第524局)……….............. .. (23) Castle Games
第三章 御城棋之外的名局(第1局——第78局)……………………………(1073) Games after Castle Games (played outside the Castle and later replayed in Castle)

So, I guess 弈于织田信长公御前 means "Played in front of [in] Oda Nobunaga's Castle", but I can't recognize 御前 here as 100% true meaning...


The first "Before Castle Games" game includes "弈于院御所". As I understand, it's "played in Imperial Household or something"...

The third game includes "弈于骏河御城神君御前" - "played in the Castle of Tokugawa Ieyasu in the Province Suruga". As I found out, 神君 means "the deified monarch, that's what they called Shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu".

To conclude, it's quite interesting quest while trying looking into the past of Japan

[mccccc]

Any help is very appreciated! I'm doing fantastic work from my point of view, because I don't know chinese at all except for Go terms

[Harleqin]

Other people are probably much more qualified than I am to try some translation, but according to my limited knowledge:

- 十二月十五日 is Decembre 15th
- 井上道砂因硕 is Inoue Dōsa Inseki
- 本因坊 is Honinbo

The rest of that sentence is probably too old-style for me.

- 前 is »before«, »in front of« (pronounced mae or zen)
- 御 is the honorific prefix (go- or o-) that you often see or hear in polite language
- (aside: 御前 could also be pronounced »omae« which was an honorific address in former times but is a very informal »you« nowadays)
- 公 means official or public (e. g. 公園 is a public park), but the dictionary also gives prince or government, so this might also be a title of the person named before.
- 城 is »castle« (shiro), 御城棋 is oshirogo (castle game)
- 以前 (izen) means »before« as in time, 的 makes it an adverb
- 御前棋 probably means something like a go game played before someone, let's say »presentation game«. The first chapter thus would be »Presentation games before the castle games«.
- 之 seems to be the particle nowadays always written just の (no)
- 外的 is again an adverb of 外 (soto or gai, meaning »outside«)
- 名局 (meikyoku) is »famous game«, so the third chapter would be just »famous games apart from the castle games«.
- 第一章 is first chapter etc.

I have never seen 弈于 and the dictionary also seems not to have it, so no idea about that, same with 赐. Oda Nobunaga seems to be written 織田信長 (at least nowadays), Shōgun 将軍.

[Ferran]

I appreciate your explanation. While I don't have a copy of those games, there are things there that I can also use myself and that might me help understand the mindsert behind Jaoanese a bit better.

- 之 seems to be the particle nowadays always written just の (no)

Hmmm... I'm not sure. That particle seems to be the one in "gen mata gen". And while I can see a "mystery's mystery" I've always seen it translated as "mystery behind / beyond / after mystery". I only know of it thanks to Hashimoto Utaro and Zen proverbs, though. Not the most common use of the word, I'm sure.

Take care

Take care

[Harleqin]

- 之 seems to be the particle nowadays always written just の (no)

That particle seems to be the one in "gen mata gen". And while I can see a "mystery's mystery" I've always seen it translated as "mystery behind / beyond / after mystery".

That would still fit. の isn't just possessive either.

[kvasir]

之 is often used in written Chinese in place of 的, also as a pronoun/placeholder for something that is left out of the sentence, but here it looks like a word "之外". Then it would mean "famous games besides the castle games" or what sounds more normal in English to myself "famous games other than castle games". At least that is what I think

[mccccc]

Thanks everyone! Very appreciated.

As for the sentence 十二月十五日赐予井上道砂因硕和本因坊迹目道的十人扶持的待遇
The translation is:
On December 15, the shogun gave Inoue Dosa Inseki and Honinbo Doteki a "salary" of 10 fuchi each. Fuchi (扶持) was a kind of salary paid by a lord to a vassal in the form of rice, and it was also a unit of volume of rice. 1 fuchi was equal to 5 hyō (俵), another unit of volume of rice. 1 hyō was equal to 60 kg, so each player received 3,000 kg of rice.

[John Fairbairn]

Quite a few things in this thread jar with me, and I don't want to get on a roller-coaster ride, but just to give a flavour...

The info of SGF file of this game tells us about the date 30.11.1685, but the book says "十一月三日弈于御城" - 03.11.

This is the first jarring note. Old Japanese did not use 30 for dates like this. They used the term 晦日 (misoka) and that is what appears in the Japanese edition. The numbers 30 or 3 do not appear. However, misoka means 30th day, because miso is an old way of saying 3x10 = 30 (mi is still used to mean 3, as in mittsu). Ka is day. So it a puzzle as to where 03.11 comes from.

Further, it is not even 30 November. It is the 30th day of the 11th lunar month, which is 25 December (1685) to us. Happy Christmas!

十二月十五日赐予井上道砂因硕和本因坊迹目道的十人扶持的待遇 - On December 15, the shogun gave Inoue Dosa Inseki and Honinbo Doteki a "salary" of 10 fuchi each.

This is not quite what the Japanese says. There is no reference to 待遇. It's splitting hairs, perhaps, but the Japanese says 扶持下さる. Originally (in Heian times) 扶持 was used to mean support or patronage. Since this was often in the form of rice, the specific term 扶持米 (fuchimai) arose, but by Edo times that term was regularly abbreviated back to 扶持. The way it was used (as here) was mostly in the form of a stipend sufficient to support X number of people. In this case it was a stipend for 10 people 十人扶持 (though the Japanese is actually 拾人扶持 so as to obviate fraud; and 10 was very much on the low side). The exact amount of rice (or its equivalent) was not fixed and varied over time, just as our weights and measurements did. The important point is that these people were being allowed to support a household of ten people, which implies a significant degree of status. It was normally an annual allowance but was halved if the recipient applied for leave of absence (e.g. holidays). in this case, it does not specifically say the Shogun granted it. It was more than likely the Commissioner of Shrines and Temples. And it was granted on 9 January 1686 in our calendar terms. Gifts of bullion and silk were also usually given.

In the case of this game (Doteki versus Yasui Shunchi), it was adjourned and continued at the residence of Lord Matsudaira of Hyuga who, I expect without checking, was the Commissioner at the time. Adjourned games were typically continued in the Commissioner's residence. Matusdaira was a name that signified a direct relationaship with the Tokugawa family, incidentally.

[Ferran]

This is not quite what the Japanese says. There is no reference to 待遇. It's splitting hairs, perhaps, but the Japanese says 扶持下さる. Originally (in Heian times) 扶持 was used to mean support or patronage. Since this was often in the form of rice, the specific term 扶持米 (fuchimai) arose, but by Edo times that term was regularly abbreviated back to 扶持. The way it was used (as here) was mostly in the form of a stipend sufficient to support X number of people. In this case it was a stipend for 10 people 十人扶持 (though the Japanese is actually 拾人扶持 so as to obviate fraud; and 10 was very much on the low side). The exact amount of rice (or its equivalent) was not fixed and varied over time, just as our weights and measurements did. The important point is that these people were being allowed to support a household of ten people, which implies a significant degree of status. It was normally an annual allowance but was halved if the recipient applied for leave of absence (e.g. holidays). in this case, it does not specifically say the Shogun granted it. It was more than likely the Commissioner of Shrines and Temples. And it was granted on 9 January 1686 in our calendar terms. Gifts of bullion and silk were also usually given.

I tried to find, yesterday, if it was an alternative to "koku", but I couldn't find it. IIRC, 1 koku was also "exactly" that.

Take care, and thanks.