Visualizing Tsumego

[Suji]

Here's something I've been toying with that is somewhat related: Find an easy life and death problem collection. Solve the problem, but remember what sequences you tried and copy them to sgf immediately after you finish.

I feel like this is helpful to me because I can see when I spend a lot of time on wrong variations or miss something. One thing I've picked up is that my reading mistakes often come from stopping too soon, as in the example above. Often a problem is very easy if you pick out the correct first move by intuition. But if you're not sure you can spend a lot of time floundering. The whole sequence took me less than a minute, but it could have taken 10 seconds if I had seen the key piece I didn't see.

This would be an interesting exercise. This could also help people get better at the game, just by seeing their thought process in motion.

[walleye]

I sometimes come across a problem that looks simple enough, but I end up staring at it for a long time before I finally get it.

Here's one of them. Note the time, open the hidden and once you've solved it tell me how long it took you.

$$B Black to play
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ , . . . O O X O . . |
$$ . . . . O X X X X X |
$$ . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ --------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Black to play
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ , . . . O O X O . . |
$$ . . . . O X X X X X |
$$ . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

[FlameBlade]

I sometimes come across a problem that looks simple enough, but I end up staring at it for a long time before I finally get it.

Here's one of them. Note the time, open the hidden and once you've solved it tell me how long it took you.

$$B Black to play
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ , . . . O O X O . . |
$$ . . . . O X X X X X |
$$ . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ --------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Black to play
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ , . . . O O X O . . |
$$ . . . . O X X X X X |
$$ . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

10 seconds, 4-dan. Useful shape to know.

[hyperpape]

I sometimes come across a problem that looks simple enough, but I end up staring at it for a long time before I finally get it.

Here's one of them. Note the time, open the hidden and once you've solved it tell me how long it took you.

$$B Black to play
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ , . . . O O X O . . |
$$ . . . . O X X X X X |
$$ . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ --------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Black to play
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ , . . . O O X O . . |
$$ . . . . O X X X X X |
$$ . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

Fifteen minutes after one beer, 3kyu, not sure if I got it right.

I'm really bad at tsumego.

[ethanb]

I sometimes come across a problem that looks simple enough, but I end up staring at it for a long time before I finally get it.

Here's one of them. Note the time, open the hidden and once you've solved it tell me how long it took you.

$$B Black to play
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ , . . . O O X O . . |
$$ . . . . O X X X X X |
$$ . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ --------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Black to play
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ , . . . O O X O . . |
$$ . . . . O X X X X X |
$$ . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

6 seconds, 2 dan

Is a white stone missing, maybe? I was looking for something else.

After blocking off the single stone, if white takes an outside liberty, black still has enough to throw in and crush. Otherwise S5 makes eye #2.

[dfan]

ethanb:

6 seconds, 2 dan
Is a white stone missing, maybe? I was looking for something else.

After blocking off the single stone, if white takes an outside liberty, black still has enough to throw in and crush. Otherwise S5 makes eye #2.

$$B
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ , . . . O O X O 2 . |
$$ . . . . O X X X X X |
$$ . . . . . O O X 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 O 3 |
$$ --------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ , . . . O O X O 2 . |
$$ . . . . O X X X X X |
$$ . . . . . O O X 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 O 3 |
$$ --------------------[/go]

What am I missing?

[FlameBlade]

I sometimes come across a problem that looks simple enough, but I end up staring at it for a long time before I finally get it.

Here's one of them. Note the time, open the hidden and once you've solved it tell me how long it took you.

$$B Black to play
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ , . . . O O X O . . |
$$ . . . . O X X X X X |
$$ . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ --------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Black to play
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ , . . . O O X O . . |
$$ . . . . O X X X X X |
$$ . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

6 seconds, 2 dan

Is a white stone missing, maybe? I was looking for something else.

After blocking off the single stone, if white takes an outside liberty, black still has enough to throw in and crush. Otherwise S5 makes eye #2.

Ethanb:

I hope you aren't looking at this, because that isn't right.

$$B Black to play
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ , . . . O O X O 2 . |
$$ . . . . O X X X X X |
$$ . . . . . O O X 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 O 3 |
$$ --------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Black to play
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ , . . . O O X O 2 . |
$$ . . . . O X X X X X |
$$ . . . . . O O X 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 O 3 |
$$ --------------------[/go]

Just sayin' because I'm not sure you "got" the problem due to your comments. At least, that's how I interpreted it in conjunction to your question about a white stone missing somewhere. There is a correct solution, but I'm not telling because I believe that this solution is extremely useful to know, as it has shown up in few of my games.

[Kirby]

I sometimes come across a problem that looks simple enough, but I end up staring at it for a long time before I finally get it.

Here's one of them. Note the time, open the hidden and once you've solved it tell me how long it took you.

$$B Black to play
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ , . . . O O X O . . |
$$ . . . . O X X X X X |
$$ . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ --------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Black to play
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ , . . . O O X O . . |
$$ . . . . O X X X X X |
$$ . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

6 seconds, 2 dan

Is a white stone missing, maybe? I was looking for something else.

After blocking off the single stone, if white takes an outside liberty, black still has enough to throw in and crush. Otherwise S5 makes eye #2.

Ethanb:

I hope you aren't looking at this, because that isn't right.

$$B Black to play
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ , . . . O O X O 2 . |
$$ . . . . O X X X X X |
$$ . . . . . O O X 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 O 3 |
$$ --------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Black to play
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ , . . . O O X O 2 . |
$$ . . . . O X X X X X |
$$ . . . . . O O X 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 O 3 |
$$ --------------------[/go]

Just sayin' because I'm not sure you "got" the problem due to your comments. At least, that's how I interpreted it in conjunction to your question about a white stone missing somewhere. There is a correct solution, but I'm not telling because I believe that this solution is extremely useful to know, as it has shown up in few of my games.

I thought he meant with one space to the left.

[daniel_the_smith]

I'm glad I'm not the only one thoroughly confused by ethanb's comment

It took me an embarrassingly long time and I got it wrong. Finally just came up with the correct solution when making a diagram for this post. Nice problem, next time I think I will get a problem of this theme in under a minute.

Solution:

Seriously, don't look until you've solved it...

$$B 6 at 4
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O 0 . |
$$ . . . . . . O 8 7 a |
$$ , . . . O O X O 9 . |
$$ . . . . O X X X X X |
$$ . . . . 2 O O X 5 . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 4 O 3 |
$$ --------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B 6 at 4
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O 0 . |
$$ . . . . . . O 8 7 a |
$$ , . . . O O X O 9 . |
$$ . . . . O X X X X X |
$$ . . . . 2 O O X 5 . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 4 O 3 |
$$ --------------------[/go]

3 is the key move and my first answer was to start at 3 which I believe is a horrible ko.

[Kirby]

Somebody should start posting the go problems of the day, again.

[walleye]

It took me an embarrassingly long time

Could you please quantify that.

[walleye]

In another thread, http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 23#p27323/ Bill Spight made an interesting comment about visualizing tsumego:

... the good L&D solvers looked at potential eye points, while the bad solvers looked at where to put stones.

Can some stronger players corroborate this from their personal experience, and can you describe what goes on in your head while you're doing it? (i.e., can you teach me how to do it?)

In my opinion, good L&D solvers are good because they have internalized a huge number of basic shapes and techniques by solving a lot of tsumego.

If you have internalized a specific technique you don't really need to imagine the moves any more. The whole sequence plays out in your subconscious and the answer appears momentarily. This helps to speed up your reading a lot because you don't spend as much time in the branches.

[daal]

... the good L&D solvers looked at potential eye points, while the bad solvers looked at where to put stones.

In my opinion, good L&D solvers are good because they have internalized a huge number of basic shapes and techniques by solving a lot of tsumego.

If you have internalized a specific technique you don't really need to imagine the moves any more. The whole sequence plays out in your subconscious and the answer appears momentarily. This helps to speed up your reading a lot because you don't spend as much time in the branches.

Yes, I believe this is an important point, and I suspect that part of what goes on in the visualization process is scanning the stones for evidence of familiar shapes and visualizing the results of sequences associated with those shapes, letting the experienced solver quickly see a branch farther along the tree.

Nonetheless, I still harbor the suspicion that there is something inherently different between looking at potential eyes and looking at potential stones. Artists, such as painters, for whom visualization is a fundamental skill, know that the shapes of the space between objects are often as important for the image as the objects themselves. For non-painters, this is counter-intuitive - for artists it's second nature. For some of them it's a matter of instinct; others have been taught.

[Wildclaw]

3 is the key move and my first answer was to start at 3 which I believe is a horrible ko.[/spoiler]

Doesn't 3 at 5 work also? Took me 2-3 minutes to come up with that. I made one correct thing and two incorrect things reading the problem.

What I did correctly was to take the first 5-10 seconds to conclude that you could make an eye in gote on the right, and hence that I needed to make an eye in sente in the corner.

After that I did my first incorrect thing, and that was to not consider the sente hane as my first option. A pure sente move like that should have a high reading priority. Especially as there isn't many other ways to exploit that specific aji in that position.

The second incorrect thing was that I wasn't methodical enough in exploring possible squeeze variants in the corner, leading to me reading the same failed sequences several times. And that cost a lot of time until I realized the power of the hane.

If you have internalized a specific technique you don't really need to imagine the moves any more. The whole sequence plays out in your subconscious and the answer appears momentarily. This helps to speed up your reading a lot because you don't spend as much time in the branches.

In many ways such intuition/pattern knowledge is more important than reading. You can get quite far by using it alone without any reading. The opposite isn't really true. Reading without any knowledge to support it isn't really possible as the search space simply is too big without good pruning.

and I suspect that part of what goes on in the visualization process is scanning the stones for evidence of familiar shapes and visualizing the results of sequences associated with those shapes,

One thing to note is that this really isn't specific to visualizing. I am personally quite weak at visualizing, so I mostly rely on other ways to read. But since my visual recognition is just fine, I can still use the same pattern associations.

[emeraldemon]

I also got this wrong . I often have trouble finding these sorts of crushing moves, for some reason it's a pattern I tend to miss. Maybe I need to go back and practice some easy ones...

$$B Black to play
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ , . . . . O O O . . |
$$ . . . . . O X X X X |
$$ . . . . . O O X . O |
$$ . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ --------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Black to play
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ , . . . . O O O . . |
$$ . . . . . O X X X X |
$$ . . . . . O O X . O |
$$ . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ --------------------[/go]