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 Post subject: Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby: Comeback Match!
Post #21 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:07 am 
Tengen
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Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
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Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

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 Post subject: Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby: Comeback Match!
Post #22 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:21 am 
Tengen
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Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
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Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
i am satisfied with bleow variation.
although black gain some potental points on both side this will give me solid ground for some serious catchup.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . 5 . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i will be satisfied with below also. i still have point 'a' to attack and drown one lonely stone in the middle.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 7 9 . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . 3 . 4 . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

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 Post subject: Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby: Comeback Match!
Post #23 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:02 am 
Honinbo

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KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . 4 . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As mentioned before, I don't want to get sealed in with my bottom group. This move keeps his groups separated, and weaker compared to if I grab territory on the left.

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 Post subject: Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby: Comeback Match!
Post #24 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:14 am 
Tengen
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Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
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Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

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 Post subject: Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby: Comeback Match!
Post #25 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:18 am 
Honinbo

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KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Some notes:
I have gained points on both sides.
He has not gotten any immediate points, really. Be build up some strength, but since I have split him, this strength is pretty low.
I do not have any very weak groups.
He still has a cutting point at "a" in the diagram below.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O a . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Conclusion: I am still pretty far ahead.

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 Post subject: Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby: Comeback Match!
Post #26 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:21 am 
Gosei
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KGS: Chew
For Magicwand:
You said earlier that some of Kirby's moves were kind of passive so far. If I may ask, which moves would you say were passive? (I was going to ask where you would recommend them instead, but perhaps I should just try to find alternative moves myself). Are you referring to his one-space jumps up the right side? Good luck with the game!

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 Post subject: Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby: Comeback Match!
Post #27 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:08 am 
Dies in gote

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Not for Players

I like that Kirby is starting the game with a pincer. However if I were him I would play at J 4 instead. I think it works better with his other handi cap stones.

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 Post subject: Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby: Comeback Match!
Post #28 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:15 am 
Honinbo

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I forgot about the suspense of the hidden comments...

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 Post subject: Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby: Comeback Match!
Post #29 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:34 am 
Tengen
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Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
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Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

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 Post subject: Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby: Comeback Match!
Post #30 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:44 am 
Tengen
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KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Chew Terr wrote:
For Magicwand:
You said earlier that some of Kirby's moves were kind of passive so far. If I may ask, which moves would you say were passive? (I was going to ask where you would recommend them instead, but perhaps I should just try to find alternative moves myself). Are you referring to his one-space jumps up the right side? Good luck with the game!


i will try to explain to best of my ability.
every move he played is a dan level move.
but there are some difference between his global reading and my global reading.

for example his H3 pincer. this move look good because he is attacking my lonely stone and avoid me attacking him.
but i wouldn't play this move if i was kirby. i would have played @ D6. to tell you the truth i can not be 100% sure if my choice is better but i will give you my reason so you can think about the difference.
because he played the pincer first i get to block the left side in sente and stablized my white group.
in my opinion he missed the flow of the game. it is better for him to let me attack his stone than the actual game of getting blocked and letting me stablize the group in sente. i guess because i played many many many taugh handycap games i can feel the differnece. it is suttle but i think it will make a world of difference at the end.

i hope this answered your question. if you have more question feel free to ask anytime ;)

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"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson


This post by Magicwand was liked by 3 people: Chew Terr, nagano, SpongeBob
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 Post subject: Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby: Comeback Match!
Post #31 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:37 am 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . O . X . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


First of all, I could consider a tenuki. But doing that would allow for white to invade the corner easily. His group still isn't super strong, so I'd like to leave the possiblity in the future for it to be weak.

The other move I considered was "a", below:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . b . a O . X . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But it leaves aji for white to invade later at "b".

So, I think just playing simply is fine. I am strong. He has potential to get weak.

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 Post subject: Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby: Comeback Match!
Post #32 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:03 pm 
Tengen
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KGS: magicwand
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Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
ok..he is playing solid game.
if he answer with knight move then i am happy.
below is what i am planning. hopefully i will rattle him and when he makes mistake i will pounce on him like a cat.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

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 Post subject: Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby: Comeback Match!
Post #33 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:51 pm 
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Posts: 9552
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Tygem: 커비라고해
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


He didn't protect the cut. I think that attacking this weakness is bigger than mucking around in the corner.

I want to exploit the cut, since the ladder works.

My first thought was this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 2 O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But white doesn't have bad prospects in this battle. One possible example is:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 7 8 . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 5 6 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 2 O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



That's because the marked stones are weak:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , B O . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O B B O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If I'm going to fight like this, it'd be nice if I had some support on top. So, what if I respond in the corner so that I can get this help:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . X . 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 7 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 8 O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 3 4 . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X 1 2 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O a X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think that the marked black stone, above, is in a nice position to help my stones. Furthermore, white has the weakness of "a". I probably cannot kill white's stones, but perhaps I can build strength to attack his group on the bottom right next.

Note: The diagrams I provided are simply examples that give a rough idea of what may happen. Unexpected moves may also show up!

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 Post subject: Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby: Comeback Match!
Post #34 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:06 pm 
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I might consider :b13: in my last diagram one space to the right. I'm still thinking about if I like that final position. Of course, many other things could happen, which I have not laid out explicitly.

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Post #35 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:21 pm 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 505
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
not what i expected but it is ok..i will have to separate that one stone to create his weak group.

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The greater the unknown"

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Post #36 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:38 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm undecided whether I want to cut or not. He could vary from joseki, but I have a good chance of ending in sente... So for now I'll just go with the flow... I'll decide if I should cut after his response.

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Post #37 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:50 pm 
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So in my previous analysis, I decided to do a one-space high pincer instead of cutting white directly. I thought that the pincer stone would help my group if I cut. I think that this is true, but what I didn't consider fully was white also has an extra stone out there from the jump (compared to when I cut directly).

So really, I was considering two possible outcomes (among many possibilities):

1.) Cut directly
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Example outcome
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


2.) First pincer, then cut


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Example outcome
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So in the latter of these two diagrams, of course all of the new stones that resulted from the top left joseki play a role in the relative strength of my group compared to the first diagram. But of particular significance are the two marked stones, I think:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Yes, as I said in my analysis, I'm glad to have the marked black stone, above, there to help my group. However, the marked white stone, above, also weakens my group a little bit.

So I'm currently debating whether or not this is truly a better outcome than simply cutting first...

Hopefully I will get sente out of this top left sequence. I might let the white aji linger. I am still undecided.

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 Post subject: Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby: Comeback Match!
Post #38 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:14 pm 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 505
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
i hope he move that stone.

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"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

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 Post subject: Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby: Comeback Match!
Post #39 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:42 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 9552
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Tygem: 커비라고해
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hmmm. He didn't play as expected. However, as Magicwand said before, "One stone is aji". Therefore, I will play at the point that I previously thought was good for white and get more points. There is still aji around where I was going to cut before (although cutting now is not a good idea).

Let's see where he moves next.

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 Post subject: Re: Magicwand vs. Kirby: Comeback Match!
Post #40 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:44 pm 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . X . . X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
ok..not what i expected..but it's ok. only thing i can do is wait for my chance.

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