Visualizing Tsumego

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:26 am

Wildclaw, I'm in a similar boat:

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:13 am

Chew Terr wrote:Wildclaw, I'm in a similar boat:
I saw the eye in gote on the right, saw the sente hane, but wasn't sure to go from the sente hane to a full eye in sente.

That's one of the advantages of Tsume-Go:
You can be sure that there is a pathway from A to B.

What you cannot be at all in real games.

karaklis · Post by **karaklis** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:37 am

emeraldemon wrote:I also got this wrong . I often have trouble finding these sorts of crushing moves, for some reason it's a pattern I tend to miss. Maybe I need to go back and practice some easy ones...

$$B Black to play
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ , . . . . O O O . . |
$$ . . . . . O X X X X |
$$ . . . . . O O X . O |
$$ . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ --------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play $$ , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . O . | $$ . . . . . . . . O . | $$ , . . . . O O O . . | $$ . . . . . O X X X X | $$ . . . . . O O X . O | $$ . . . . . . O X O . | $$ --------------------[/go]

Yeah, oshitsubushi is a pattern that doesn't appear very often in real-life games (only once I had this in a corner fight). If you are tsumego-trained, you see this immediately. Then it is so simple that you doubt that it's really the solution..

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:24 am

Here is another type of problem.

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:10 pm

That's a good one, too. I found it easier than walleye's.

I don't know how long this took me, I looked at it and then came back later. (Walleye's took me more than 10 minutes and it might have been more than 20, but I didn't actually find the correct solution until later.)

Solution to Cassandra's:

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:26 pm

daniel_the_smith wrote:Solution to Cassandra's:
...

What about this :b2:

?

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:30 pm

daal · Post by **daal** » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:28 am

May I remind you tsumego solvers that this thread is about visualizing tsumego, i.e., where you are looking and what drew your eye there. Please include a few words about this in your solutions. Otherwise, as Kirby suggested, go ahead and start a tsumego of the day thread elsewhere.

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:10 am

It seems that my posting had been source of some disturbances.

So, here I will deliver my thoughts about the first problem.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . O . O . . | $$ . . . . . . O . . . | $$ , . . . O O X O . . | $$ . . . . O X X X X X | $$ . . . . . O O X C C | $$ . . . . . . . . W C | $$ --------------------[/go]

Black's eye space in the corner alone is not sufficient for two eyes.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . O . O . . | $$ . . . . . . O . . . | $$ , . . . O O X O . . | $$ . . . . O X X X X X | $$ . . . . . @ @ X . . | $$ . . . . . . a . O . | $$ --------------------[/go]

The motive of White's two marked stones at the bottom can be found in several Tsume-Go. Usually, a Black move at 'a' threatens to capture them and makes it more difficult for some White "inside" stones to reach the open.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . O . O . . | $$ . . . . . . O . a . | $$ , . . . O O X P . C | $$ . . . . O X X X X X | $$ . . . . . O O X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . O . | $$ --------------------[/go]

A Black move at a will secure an eye in Gote at the circled spot. White will not let capture her crossed stone there.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . O . O . . | $$ . . . . . . O . . . | $$ , . . . O O X O . . | $$ . . . . O X X X X X | $$ . . . . . O O X M C | $$ . . . . . . . . O M | $$ --------------------[/go]

An eye in the corner in Sente means threatening two eyes there in Gote.
Due to the presence of White's circled stone there is only one option for Black to get two eyes: Play at both of the crossed points.

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:34 am

Cassandra wrote:It seems that my posting had been source of some disturbances.

So, here I will deliver my thoughts about the first problem.

Thanks Cassandra. I think it is really useful to see the logical process that stronger players follow to solve these.

I pretty much had the same logic (can make one eye in gote on the right so need to make the other eye in sente, the hane on the bottom is sente, the 1-1 point seems relevant) but couldn't put it together in time (I gave up after five minutes).

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:53 am

dfan wrote:Thanks Cassandra. I think it is really useful to see the logical process that stronger players follow to solve these.

Oh, I'm not that strong. EGF rating is 2 Kyû (for "usual" games on tournaments).

May be that I'm stronger at Tsume-Go ;-)

And I experience some answers to the problems in "my" problem corner of the German Go Journal, where I ask myself something like "Why didn't they see the vital point(s) ?"

I suppose that there are some characteristic shapes in Tsume-Go you have to be aware of.

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:43 pm

Here is a more "open" problem to try.

walleye · Post by **walleye** » Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:32 pm

Cassandra wrote:Here is a more "open" problem to try.

$$B Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X X . X . .
$$ | . X X X . O . . . ,
$$ | . X O O . O O X X .
$$ | X O . . . . . O X .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . .
$$ --------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . X X . X . . $$ | . X X X . O . . . , $$ | . X O O . O O X X . $$ | X O . . . . . O X . $$ | . O . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

This might take a while to solve but it doesn't really bother me. There is a lot of open space, so many variations need to be explored. It is easy to get lost in all that.

I am more fascinated with problems that have really simple solutions that are really hard to see.

Here's another problem from a Japanese collection

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . O X . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . O O X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . X O X O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

When I look at it now, the solution is so obvious and so simple, I can't believe I couldn't see it when I first came across it.

A dan level player should be able to solve this in seconds, but I suspect many kyu players will struggle with it for a long time.

I'd really like to know what it is that prevents us from seeing the right moves.

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:05 pm

walleye wrote:When I look at it now, the solution is so obvious and so simple, I can't believe I couldn't see it when I first came across it.

The solution isn't that simple.
While :b1:

may be obvious, :b3:

is not.

I'd really like to know what it is that prevents us from seeing the right moves.

We start before we have analysed the whole position enough.

There may be some Semeai-principles we haven't really understood.

Usually we have difficulties to visualise a position, where Ishi-no-shita is concerned.

quantumf · Post by **quantumf** » Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:51 pm

walleye wrote:A dan level player should be able to solve this in seconds, but I suspect many kyu players will struggle with it for a long time.

Please put us kyu players out of our misery

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