Oh, but it is. A simple tesuji. If you know the technique, you will see the solution right away. But if you don't, you'll be wandering past it again and again and will never stop to look at it.Cassandra wrote:The solution isn't that simple.walleye wrote:When I look at it now, the solution is so obvious and so simple, I can't believe I couldn't see it when I first came across it.
Visualizing Tsumego
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walleye
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Re: Visualizing Tsumego
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Cassandra
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Re: Visualizing Tsumego
After you have seen the solution, it seems simple.walleye wrote:Oh, but it is. A simple tesuji. If you know the technique, you will see the solution right away. But if you don't, you'll be wandering past it again and again and will never stop to look at it.
In the following, I will give some thoughts on the way to the solution and some remarks to topics, which might be overlooked.
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
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daal
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Re: Visualizing Tsumego
Well after looking at the problem for 2 minutes, I believe that I know part of the reason why I haven't yet solved it. I am seeing a logical problem that goes like this: If I don't keep white in atari until he's dead, he can escape with at least part of his group at y or z. Since no moves from a-d that I can see serve to do this, the problem can't be solved. This is not my last word, but simply a presentation of the way I'm looking at the problem. (Presumably the wrong way).walleye wrote:
I am more fascinated with problems that have really simple solutions that are really hard to see.
Here's another problem from a Japanese collection When I look at it now, the solution is so obvious and so simple, I can't believe I couldn't see it when I first came across it.
A dan level player should be able to solve this in seconds, but I suspect many kyu players will struggle with it for a long time.
I'd really like to know what it is that prevents us from seeing the right moves.
There must be a flaw in my reasoning, and I suspect it involve z but I can't find it. My guess is that logic is a poor advisor, and that instead I should be looking somewhere that I'm not...
Patience, grasshopper.
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quantumf
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Re: Visualizing Tsumego
Thanks, Cassandra, nice post. As you said, move 1 was obvious, but the thinking for move 3 and 5 utterly eluded me.walleye wrote:Cassandra, you are too awesome!
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xed_over
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Re: Visualizing Tsumego
I don't think I overlooked any of the points you mentioned "might be overlooked", but I did overlook this one
plus, I was probably trying to ...
I totally overlooked the shortage of liberties issue as to why 4 couldn't be played at 5 or a, and in addition, the symmetry of 3 at 3 or 5 just caused my brain to overload.Cassandra wrote:
plus, I was probably trying to ...
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Cassandra
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Re: Visualizing Tsumego
No, I indeed meant Ishi-no-shita.quantumf wrote:btw, I think the term you mean is oi-otoshi (connect and die), not ishi-no-shita (under the stones)
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
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hyperpape
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Re: Visualizing Tsumego
Daal, if you have yet to look, think about your premises. Sometimes you can't see how they could be false, but they are.
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Fedya
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Re: Visualizing Tsumego
10 minutes (KGS 6k), and I still have no idea if I've got the right answer.walleye wrote:I sometimes come across a problem that looks simple enough, but I end up staring at it for a long time before I finally get it.
Here's one of them. Note the time, open the hidden and once you've solved it tell me how long it took you.
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quantumf
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Re: Visualizing Tsumego
Every time I thought about replying to this, I think of this: http://xkcd.com/386/Cassandra wrote:No, I indeed meant Ishi-no-shita.quantumf wrote:btw, I think the term you mean is oi-otoshi (connect and die), not ishi-no-shita (under the stones)
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Visualizing Tsumego
The think the oversight is in the definition of the problem. By saying: "...he can escape with at least part of his group...", you seem to imply that allowing white to do so would be a failure. But what exactly is the definition of the problem? Is it to kill all the white stones? Is it to rescue the black stones at the top?daal wrote:Well after looking at the problem for 2 minutes, I believe that I know part of the reason why I haven't yet solved it. I am seeing a logical problem that goes like this: If I don't keep white in atari until he's dead, he can escape with at least part of his group at y or z. Since no moves from a-d that I can see serve to do this, the problem can't be solved. This is not my last word, but simply a presentation of the way I'm looking at the problem. (Presumably the wrong way).walleye wrote:
I am more fascinated with problems that have really simple solutions that are really hard to see.
Here's another problem from a Japanese collection When I look at it now, the solution is so obvious and so simple, I can't believe I couldn't see it when I first came across it.
A dan level player should be able to solve this in seconds, but I suspect many kyu players will struggle with it for a long time.
I'd really like to know what it is that prevents us from seeing the right moves.
There must be a flaw in my reasoning, and I suspect it involve z but I can't find it. My guess is that logic is a poor advisor, and that instead I should be looking somewhere that I'm not...
All that was presented to us was:
What exactly is the goal of the problem?walleye wrote:...
Here's another problem from a Japanese collection...
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