Hi,
I couldn't find a page about this on Sensei's Library. Is there a name for it so I can look it up? A few times this week someone has played this fuseki against me and I'm not always quite sure what to do:
What next for White? I've only ever tried A or B (usually B), and what is Black's response? Usually in my games, I play White B and Black responds with C - but I suspect there are other options. I'm curious about this opening and would appreciate and details you can provide.
Thanks.
"Double 3-4" fuseki question
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Nikolas73
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"Double 3-4" fuseki question
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Marcus
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Re: "Double 3-4" fuseki question
I found this on SL: http://senseis.xmp.net/?path=OverviewOfFusekiPatterns&page=ParallelFusekiBlackEnclosure
I'll let you know if I come across anything else ...
I'll let you know if I come across anything else ...
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emeraldemon
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Re: "Double 3-4" fuseki question
This is my favorite fuseki as black, I play it almost exclusively 
. The most common reply is just what you described:
The followup at ''a'' is big, but black can also approach one of the other corners. Many pros have played this way, I'd say it's standard. More recently, a new sequence has become popular:
It's discussed in detail here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?BQM497
Sensei's Position search is fairly useful. Here are two recent pro games with the fuseki:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?11thNongshimCup%2FStage2Game1
http://senseis.xmp.net/?11thNongshimCup%2FStage2Game6
Hane Naoki plays it pretty frequently, so if you're curious you might look through some of his games.
The only other thing I'd say is that the move at ''a'' in your diagram is almost never played by pros, and I think it's bad because it allows two enclosures.
In my games against other kyu players I see the wedge pretty often, and I'm always happy to make the second enclosure. Note that this is considered ok here:
because the enclosure isn't made.
. The most common reply is just what you described:The followup at ''a'' is big, but black can also approach one of the other corners. Many pros have played this way, I'd say it's standard. More recently, a new sequence has become popular:
It's discussed in detail here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?BQM497
Sensei's Position search is fairly useful. Here are two recent pro games with the fuseki:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?11thNongshimCup%2FStage2Game1
http://senseis.xmp.net/?11thNongshimCup%2FStage2Game6
Hane Naoki plays it pretty frequently, so if you're curious you might look through some of his games.
The only other thing I'd say is that the move at ''a'' in your diagram is almost never played by pros, and I think it's bad because it allows two enclosures.
In my games against other kyu players I see the wedge pretty often, and I'm always happy to make the second enclosure. Note that this is considered ok here:
because the enclosure isn't made.
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Nikolas73
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Re: "Double 3-4" fuseki question
Thanks for the answers (and Senseis' links) - I definitely have to try this opening as Black now. It will be a nice change from nirensei and sanrensei.
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daniel_the_smith
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Re: "Double 3-4" fuseki question
I always play this as black.
I would say 60-70% of games where I play black start like this. "a" is a possibility for
if you don't like the pincer.
EDIT: had the colors backwards...
I would say 60-70% of games where I play black start like this. "a" is a possibility for
if you don't like the pincer.EDIT: had the colors backwards...
Last edited by daniel_the_smith on Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Aphelion
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Re: "Double 3-4" fuseki question
I play this fuseki almost exclusively as Black. If you wish, we could play a few games as we are about the same level.
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emeraldemon
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Re: "Double 3-4" fuseki question
I guess I'm not the only one who likes this opening! Just for fun, here's the last game I played as black on KGS (need to play more):
Feel free to offer advice or questions!
Feel free to offer advice or questions!
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flOvermind
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Re: "Double 3-4" fuseki question
emeraldemon wrote:The only other thing I'd say is that the move at ''a'' in your diagram is almost never played by pros, and I think it's bad because it allows two enclosures.
I don't think two enclosures are the reason why
is not played by pros, because the following situation is considered ok, and black gets two enclosures here, too.I can only guess why this is better than your diagram. My first guess would be that after
at a, 
at 7 is a good point. This would be a bit thin with the white stone under the star point. My second guess is that it has something to do with playing away from positions of strength. White got an ideal two space extension, and still has a comfortable safety distance to the black position on both sides.-
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Re: "Double 3-4" fuseki question
Pros play this opening. I've seen it many times in pro games.
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Re: "Double 3-4" fuseki question
I have 2251 games with this position (searching only the right side). The followups for white are:
a - 1437 times
b - 499 times
c - 217 times
d - 54 times
e - 33 times
other - 11 times
So yes, d is played occasionally, but the approach is overwhelmingly more common.
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Re: "Double 3-4" fuseki question
flOvermind wrote:emeraldemon wrote:
Is this really considered okay? Black gets two shimari and sente to boot. It may be playable, but I'd wager most players prefer black.
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emeraldemon
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Re: "Double 3-4" fuseki question
it was flovermind, not me, who wrote "ok for black" there. my point by quoting the numbers is that pros very rarely play that way, so I don't think amateurs should either 
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flOvermind
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Re: "Double 3-4" fuseki question
Personally I wouldn't play that way. I would prefer black there, too. But pros do play it. 54 games out of 2251 is not much, but it's enough to assume it's not particularly bad for either player 
But I find it interesting that the move under the star point seems to be not played at all by pros. The two shimari can't be the reason, because that would apply to all moves that split the side instead of approaching the corner. I can't find a single game with the move directly under the star point, but the two moves next to it seem to be played occasionally. Although the one nearer to the shimari may have been an experiment, since I can only find three games, all three by the same player and in the same tournament (and all three lost).
But I find it interesting that the move under the star point seems to be not played at all by pros. The two shimari can't be the reason, because that would apply to all moves that split the side instead of approaching the corner. I can't find a single game with the move directly under the star point, but the two moves next to it seem to be played occasionally. Although the one nearer to the shimari may have been an experiment, since I can only find three games, all three by the same player and in the same tournament (and all three lost
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Re: "Double 3-4" fuseki question
Two shimaris, of which the lower right cannot develop in the direction it would like, no hopes of developing the right hand side, and White has a 4-4 on the other two corners? I'd be happy enough with either here.
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Re: "Double 3-4" fuseki question
flOvermind wrote:Personally I wouldn't play that way. I would prefer black there, too. But pros do play it. 54 games out of 2251 is not much, but it's enough to assume it's not particularly bad for either player
But I find it interesting that the move under the star point seems to be not played at all by pros. The two shimari can't be the reason, because that would apply to all moves that split the side instead of approaching the corner. I can't find a single game with the move directly under the star point, but the two moves next to it seem to be played occasionally. Although the one nearer to the shimari may have been an experiment, since I can only find three games, all three by the same player and in the same tournament (and all three lost
This is my favourite response for white 6 from this pattern, which strengthens black's territory, and puts pressure on white to maintain a base. While white can theoretically tenuki at this point, the group is far from strong or settled, and can be harassed for profit later in the game.
White one higher removes the strong response of 7 from the table, and white instead takes a second enclosure, making it slightly better for white.
That said, not many pros like this sequence for white. There's probably a reason why, yes? The approaches are usually better.
Amusingly, I've just begun reading Sakata Eio's Modern Joseki and Fuseki, and this sequence, (with different white moves for 2 and 4) is the focus of the first discussion, particularly white's response to black 5 enclosure.
I'm still trying to fully understand all the proper responses, but Sakata seems to say that the low approach is a good one even though white is likely to be loosely pincered..