It is currently Sat May 03, 2025 12:29 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 489 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 ... 25  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #201 Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:42 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9552
Liked others: 1602
Was liked: 1712
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Dusk Eagle wrote:
I would not assume that a move by a professional is a mistake unless other pros say it is.


Well, somebody has to lose the game :)

Though, I admit that professional mistakes are probably much more infrequent and slight than ours.

_________________
be immersed

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #202 Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:01 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1758
Liked others: 378
Was liked: 375
Rank: 4d
Obviously professionals make mistakes in most if not all of their games, but the vast majority of us are far too weak to identify which moves are actual mistakes. Thus, I always try to withhold negative judgment until another pro says a certain move was wrong.

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #203 Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:48 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1596
Liked others: 891
Was liked: 533
Rank: AGA 2k Fox 3d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm39 ACTUAL GAME: Move 39
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X 1 O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #204 Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:15 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1457
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
emeraldemon wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm39 a guess
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . 4 O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X 3 O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X 1 O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White 42 looks pretty dangerous.


:b39: is forced, of course. But :w40: is the wrong direction.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm39 a guess
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a b . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X 1 O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't have the tactical skills to know exactly what would be best for black ( a? b? c? ) but black would love to cut off :w40: and :w42: while invading/flattening white's territory, while still having access to the center. If white wants to contest :b38:, he has to try to cut it off with D10.

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #205 Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:17 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 553
Liked others: 61
Was liked: 250
Rank: AGA 5 dan
emeraldemon wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm39
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . 4 O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X 3 O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X 1 O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White 42 looks pretty dangerous.

B can win the inside capturing race with the placement shown below:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 1 . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The question then is whether W can cut and capture something on the outside. Here is a likely attempt.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X 4 . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X 6 8 O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . 3 O 7 X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 1 2 O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Looking a little deeper, B can still win with the following continuation. Note that B3 cannot be used to capture W2 in a ladder, so B has to play underneath. In the end, B wins as long as the ladder starting with W4 does not work. So the B "tenuki" really was a ladder breaker, as we suspected.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X 2 . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X O 1 X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X O X O O O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X O X X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O O O X 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So I guess a trade is coming:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm39
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X 1 O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This post by mitsun was liked by: Chew Terr
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #206 Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:36 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1457
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
@Mitsun: An impressive piece of analysis.
Image

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #207 Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:49 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1596
Liked others: 891
Was liked: 533
Rank: AGA 2k Fox 3d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
As mitsun predicted.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm40 ACTUAL GAME: Moves 40-41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . 1 O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #208 Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:07 am 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1457
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
This would be horrible for white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm40
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . a O 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . 1 O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


even if :w42: were at 'a' or 'b' or elsewhere nearby.


Running with :w42: looks suicidal, even if there were ko theats in the opening. Now a move around 'a' is a ladder breaker for black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm40
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 8 O 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . 1 O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



So white has little choice but to walk into the hane at the head of two stones:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm40
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O 3 4 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . 1 O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It is not pleasant for white to fight like this, but all other options involve delaying the fight and getting closer to the power of the black shimari up top.

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #209 Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:12 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 553
Liked others: 61
Was liked: 250
Rank: AGA 5 dan
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
@Mitsun: An impressive piece of analysis.
Thanks. However, a professional would have to analyze a lot more than that before making a move. For example, why can't B atari at J7 to break the ladder? And why can't W give up the cutting stone to connect under by switching to M2 atari? (Maybe B has to play M2 before K5, although W can still connect under.) Of course it helps a kibitzer to know that D9 must have been a ladder breaker :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #210 Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:25 pm 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4511
Location: Chatteris, UK
Liked others: 1589
Was liked: 656
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
So white has little chice but to walk into the hane at the head of two stones:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm40
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O 3 4 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . 1 O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It is not pleasant for white to fight like this, but all other options involve delaying the fight and getting closer to the power of the black shimari up top.


Hmmm, I don't believe this for a second. I've never seen a pro play like this, particularly with those stones in the top left. Perhaps a contact in the top left?:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm40
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . 1 O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #211 Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:44 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1457
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
topazg wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
So white has little choice but to walk into the hane at the head of two stones:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm40
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O 3 4 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . 1 O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It is not pleasant for white to fight like this, but all other options involve delaying the fight and getting closer to the power of the black shimari up top.


Hmmm, I don't believe this for a second. I've never seen a pro play like this, particularly with those stones in the top left. Perhaps a contact in the top left?:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm40
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . 1 O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'll agree that we don't see pros play like this, but then we seldom see pros put into a position like this. I'm not saying that letting the opponent hane at the head of two stones is good, merely that it is the best of a bunch of bad alternatives. Black tenukied and thus has the extra move there.

It is precisely moves like :b45: that white does not want to encourage. He wants to do as much of the fighting as possible in the shadow of his own stones in the lower left, and as little fighting as possible in the shadow of the black stones in the upper left.
Only when he is assured of eyes, or when his group is in some other manner stonger than the black shimari, will he want to move northward.

Right now, white is stronger on the lower left with his six+ stone group than black is in the upper left with his two stone group. If white can get in a fight in which both the nacent groups on the mid-left-side become big, white's mid-left group will menace black's corner before black's mid-left group bothers white's corner.

Consider the slighty schematicized diagram below, in which both white and black get stronger - represented by squared stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm40
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . b . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . @ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . @ @ @ @ . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . @ O 3 4 # # # . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . # 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . # . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . c . O . 1 O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . d . O . B . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O B B . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black has to worry about white stones at 'a' or 'b'. But because the circled black stones are dead, white never has concerns about the health of his corner. He can reduce at 'c', white blocks with 'd', and the rest there is yose. Eventually black will have to protect his shimari, whereas white will not have to do anything to help his lower left group.

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #212 Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:00 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1596
Liked others: 891
Was liked: 533
Rank: AGA 2k Fox 3d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
This seems like another good time to ask people which side they'd rather be playing.

So: which side would you rather be playing?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #213 Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:06 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1457
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
dfan wrote:
This seems like another good time to ask people which side they'd rather be playing.

So: which side would you rather be playing?


I have white ahead by about 10 point plus komi, if any. ( BTW, Dfan, is there a komi? And, if so, how much? )

My gut feel is that black's attack is worth about 10 points. That makes them even on the board. If there is no komi, I'm indifferent. If there is a komi, I'd prefer white.

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #214 Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:36 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 2060
Location: Texas
Liked others: 546
Was liked: 173
Rank: KGS 3k
GD Posts: 264
KGS: Chew
dfan wrote:
This seems like another good time to ask people which side they'd rather be playing.

So: which side would you rather be playing?


I'd take black, if only because more of the moves he (or she) has made are the ones I would. Which doesn't mean he's ahead, but probably that I would do better from his side of the board from here on.

_________________
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #215 Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:00 pm 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 505
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
dfan wrote:
This seems like another good time to ask people which side they'd rather be playing.

So: which side would you rather be playing?


white is better.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #216 Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 6:52 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1596
Liked others: 891
Was liked: 533
Rank: AGA 2k Fox 3d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
( BTW, Dfan, is there a komi? And, if so, how much? )

There is a komi (you could probably guess that by the fact White started with two 3-3s) but I'm not actually sure how big it is! If we get near the end of the game and it looks like it'll matter I'll figure out exactly what it is.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #217 Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:36 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1596
Liked others: 891
Was liked: 533
Rank: AGA 2k Fox 3d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm42 ACTUAL GAME: Move 42
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Interestingly, the commentary says " :w42: may be a little heavy", and suggests as an alternative the keima jump that Joaz discarded, but gives this continuation rather than his:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc VARIATION
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 2 O . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #218 Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:03 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 553
Liked others: 61
Was liked: 250
Rank: AGA 5 dan
dfan wrote:
This seems like another good time to ask people which side they'd rather be playing. So: which side would you rather be playing?
I would take W, not because I can count territory, but because it feels like W gained from the exchange on the bottom. W converted potential B territory into secure W territory, while B only got an extra (admittedly large) move from the ladder-breaker.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #219 Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:26 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1596
Liked others: 891
Was liked: 533
Rank: AGA 2k Fox 3d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm43 ACTUAL GAME: Move 43
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O 1 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I guess this move was too obvious for anyone to bother predicting it. But these are good opportunities for kyu players (like me) to make predictions :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Prokovich game
Post #220 Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:17 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1457
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
dfan wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm43 ACTUAL GAME: Move 43
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O 1 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I guess this move was too obvious for anyone to bother predicting it. ...)


I did:

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
...

So white has little choice but to walk into the hane at the head of two stones:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm40
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O 3 4 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . 1 O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
...



My prediction for white's next:

White wants to keep the fight closer to his strngth to the south. So he hanes. Top or bottom. I'm not sure which is better, and too lazy to read it out.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm43
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O 1 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . b X X t . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 489 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 ... 25  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group