Hello everyone im completely new to the Go world (dont even know my rank) these are some of the books im reading right now some are kinda advanced and beyond me at this point i know i went a little crazy in the bookstore but jus wanted some oponions on were i should start and what should i be focusing on right now im not really worried about getting strong really fast i just want to learn good moves vs bad moves instead of jus randomly dropping stones on the board with no purpose. THXS


Learn to Play Go: A Master's Guide to the Ultimate Game (Volume I) Janice Kim

Go Basics: Concepts & Strategies for New Players by Peter Shotwell

Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go by Toshiro Kageyama

In the Beginning (Beginner and Elementary Go Books) Ishigure Ikuro

Tesuji James Davies

Life and Death (Beginner and Elementary Go Books) James Davies

Welcome to the forums! Also, welcome to a fascinating and truly fun game. There's a lot of depth to go, and you can learn a lot from it! I hope that you enjoy your journey.

In terms of what you should be focusing on right now, I'd say that you can read books if you are interested in them. It's certainly good to be enthusiastic!

But more than that, it's typically recommended to simply play a lot of games!

You'll probably lose *a lot* at first, but you can improve in big jumps when you're first starting out.

Good luck!

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be immersed

Welcome welcome. I'd say this is the best place to start off: http://playgo.to/iwtg/en/
Once you've fully grasped the concepts in that tutorial, you can try reading some of the books that you've posted but it's especially important to just play as many games as you can. Expose yourself to the patterns that come up on the Go board and you'll be picking up new things every game. I would recommend KGS for playing online Go with other people.

Hey, and welcome. Unless I'm mistaken there used to be somebody on the go forums with that name, funny coincidence. I can personally recommend Learn to Play Go, followed by In the Beginning. I'm unfamiliar with Go Basics and its level, but otherwise, these two are simplest and help get a basic grounding. Beyond reading, try messing with "the interactive way to go" if you want to make sure you know the rules properly. It's an online tutorial. After that, I recommend going to KGS, an online go server at gokgs.com, download the client, and start playing. There is a beginner's room there that should help you find suitable opponents. Playing other people will help you get the hang of things faster than anything else. Consider trying the different sizes of board (smaller boards make for faster, more tactical games, while larger boards let you get more of an idea of the depth of strategy). Otherwise, just enjoy yourself, and you'll figure it out as you go!

Welcome, again, to the forums. Nice to meet you.

edit: wow, two people beat me, and Araban even posted both of my recommended links! Quick on the draw!

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Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].

Go problems are best at first (and later, too). I recommend Graded Go Problems for beginners, vol 1 or 2. Volume 1 is pretty easy, I'm not sure how long ago you "just started".

On your list, Life & Death and Tesuji are great but will probably be too hard for a while. I haven't read the other books on your list.

Welcome to the forums

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That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
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My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com

Welcome!

First, I should say that you can work your way through any of those books and learn something. But I would strongly recommend that you start with Janice Kim's book (and pick up Volume II of the same series) and maybe Go Basics (I'm not familiar with it), and leave the others alone for now. When you've worked through Learn to Play Go (Volume I and maybe Volume II), and played some games on 19x19 (though I'd start on 9x9 and 13x13), maybe read In the Beginning. It will still be "above" your level, but I think even relatively new players can get something out of that book.

I also recommend doing a bunch of problems--either the free ones online, or maybe work through Graded Go Problems for Beginners Volume 1.

Reading Tesuji and Life & Death right now would be an exercise in frustration. I don't think you'd get much out of Kageyama's book either.

I recommend to get the free program Igowin (windows only, runs on Linux with Wine) and play it for a while - you will very quickly learn a bunch of basic instinct moves. It's much faster and also less embarrassing than playing real people (19x19 can be quite tedious if you just die all over the place). Start with the suggested handicap and try to beat it down to even games. After that just play real people on KGS.

+1 to Igowin, it's how I learned to play.

_________________
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com

i'd say just play, and play humans too (there are many beginners like you out there, you don't necesarily lose every match). and have fun. if you want to play a program, there are some bots on kgs (some "nice and weak"), and also "truly" free software for any platform, based on gnugo (linux, windows, probably mac too), but beware, gnugo is a bit too strong these days for a beginner. i am no expert, but imho, i would play at least 100 games before starting to read some of that stuff, and just have fun. try to play, if possible, mostly players of your level or considerably stronger if you get the chance (they will generaly also gladly give you some hints). nothing wrong with making "random" moves when you're just starting out, it's fun to explore the game yourself, and honestly i don't think one should start by learning what others have found, maybe you enjoy finding some of the things for yourself.

just my humble beginner opinion

I think I'd rather recommend http://gochild2009.appspot.com/ these days

I did not read it but many people learned go with the Janice Kim books and loved them.



Give up on these ones for now. If you have "learn to play go", read it as you start to play games, it should be a good companion to learn the basic concepts. Play lots of games, as other advised you already.


Yeah, this site is cool I'd definitely recommend it for a beginner who wants to learn some basic tactics. But try playing some games first! Igowin is a good start but playing humans on KGS is more fun.

If you want to use a program as an opponent to learn from:

a) You want one that is significantly stronger than you are so that you will get punished when you make a mistake (a human player your own strength might let you get away with bad habits). But the game is hopelessly distorted at handicaps > nine stones. In other words, you want the program to be playing in the range 9-3 stones stronger than yourself and then you take the appropriate handicap or a triffle less than adequate handicap.

Note: What you will be learning this way is "how to make use of stones already placed" but that is a rather significant part of what go is all about.

b) I don't know why people are so keen on "free" (as in "fee lunch" --- the orginal "free software" concept meant non-restictive licenses, not that the the software would be "no cost*"). Yes, it's always nice not to have to pay for something but nothing wrong with the more usual situation. Software engineers need to eat too! Sorry, in my experience only a very tiny fraction of the people who object to being asked to pay for software are in the habit of providing their own services to others gratis. In other words, it's not wrong/evil when somebody decides "I'll create this software for you but only if you pay me for it". You then get to decide whether you want it badly enough to pay for it.

* The original rallying cry was "software for the price of a book"

If you like learning from go problems, I'd rather recommend 321go.org. The advantage of this site is that it has a go course together with lots of exercises. You have to sign up there, but it keeps track of your progress (i.e. it knows which problems you've already done and you can easily continue where you have stopped). It took me from nothing to 15k.

As for go books, some good recommendations have already been made. For exercises "Graded Go Problems for Beginners" vol. 1 and 2 are surely the best for beginners.

Welcome to the global club

by truly free i mean open source, not free as in beer. i am generally not interested and avoiding "free" (non open source, but with 0 pricetag) software, the only exception in the past few years is the kgs client, and even that makes me unconfortable (for instance, i don't buy computers with nvidia video cards because i would be forced to use non-open source software to get them to work properly, this often costs me money, so i don't mind paying for software, even though indirectly in this case). in my experience, the vast majority of people who prefer commercial software (because "it is better") will not pay for it, my personal view of things is: if it's that good, pay whatever the price is, if not, find something which suits you better, either lower price, or free/open, but do not "steal". in my experience, the vast majority of "open source zealots" will share that view, and stand by it. so please don't pick up the stone before you are sure which way you are going to swing it.

further more, there are several examples already of companies making money from open source, so maybe things are not as black and white as some may think. in general, open source (and multi-platform) is good for everybody (it's obvious, just look around you). i won't go into details, but these days, being involved in open source projects is actually a very good selling point for any coder, some will almost require it.

the original cry was "free as in speech" (subtitle: "we're coders and we want to work together, you greedy bastards" )

the original (as well as the current version) of the license is not non-restrictive as such, it is restrictive enough to protect the freedom of the code (some will say it's "viral"; maybe, i hope it works ). i am talking gpl here not bsd or the likes.

anyway, back to the thread: i still think gnugo is good (strong) enough for a beginner (i know it can kick the s%$^ out of me), but still i would not recommend it except in small doses: play humans, and have fun! i would personally not recommend going anywhere beyond that "the interactive way to go" link before playing at least 100 games or so against humans. that's just my humble opinion, of course.

On Open Source: Yes, I pay for my commercial software, and yes, the general trend is that the commercial software fits my needs FAR better than the open source alternatives. That isn't to say that I don't use Open Source. I do have several Open Source products that DO fit my needs in small ways. I think the difference between my own attitude and the attitude of my colleagues who are much more into Open Source is that I'd rather NOT spend my time on the computer, given the option. So, I spend money to make sure I spend as little time on the computer as possible. (Heh, odd attitude for a programmer/support technician, I know). Sometimes there is no software that fits my needs, so I have built my own tools in the past. In general, though, those tools are hacky and very specific (throw-away code) so it is never released publicly.

The right tool for the job, I say.

On gnugo and other robots: Playing gnugo is boring, in my opinion, but some people enjoy playing against it. It's a personal preference. For me, Go is a social endeavor, so I much prefer playing against someone.

glad to hear that, you are, unfortunately, a minority (sorry, you probably know it already), in the sense that you are actually responsibly paying for what you like. my hat goes off to you, but one note: i didn't mean you when i said most won't pay, so, unfortunately, my statement still stands (it was obvious from your wording that you expect one to pay anyway, so it would have been stupid for me to target you specifically with my statement )

i know what you mean, i hate spending too much time on the computer. perhaps it's exactly because it's your job, and you'd like to do something else with your free time than what you already do all day at work . i know what you mean about "hackish" tools you really only can use yourself, been there done that (though i'm no programmer, so probably at a different level)



agreed. the unix way, isn't it? . i tend to see it on the long run though, and i discovered it's much more efficient for me to spend a bit of time to get things to work the way i want them, chose my software carefully, make sure it's open and "alive"; for instance, i have been using the same "desktop" for almost a decade now, it took me days to slowly get it to work exactly as i wanted it, but i enjoyed the process. ffwd all these years, i can still just get a new computer, install the (current) package, drop my 10y old config there, and i have my desktop as i know it and love it. it's not pretty, it's not something anybody else would like using i guess, but it's perfect for me, and saves a lot of time. had this been commercial stuff, i would have had to re-learn, re-configure and so on several times, supposing it wasn't dropped and discontinued entirely.

but your point is inportant: open source is not "for free", even if only for this: sometimes you need to spend time to get it to work how you want it. in my experience, it's rarely any different with ocmercial stuff, but that's besides the point. "there's no free lunch"

anyway, sorry for the offtopic rambling. i guess we should give it a rest, i think it's quite clear that our opinions are merely complementary anyway

appologies to the original poster. i hope he at least found it entertaining



i somewhat agree. i tend to prefer a more imperfect human than a computer, as an oponnent. imho, this game is about two people playing eachother. gnugo and other "robots" are great though, for certain purposes, and i think the effort put into them and the level they have reached today is impressive. i think it might also soon push the elite of go to "re-invent" the game, and look at more unconventional approaches. i vaguely believe that, unlike chess, the inherent complexity of this game can mean there's still ways we haven't explored, and which will be enough to blow a machine out of the water again, without going to 21x21 boards . but what do i know?


i do agree with you, as i said: i would definetly not recommend a beginner to stay hidden with his computer and play against bots. i did it, it's horrible, and it can all but kill your will to play. you can play them from time to time, but don't make it a habbit. just my humble view.

"Turing Test"?

GnuGo is boring? (I've never played against it). Do you mean by that it always plays exactly the same way? What if that were not true of some program? What if unless you were told or peaked you couldn't tell. Say you were to play ten games via a server, five of which were against a human opponent and five against a particular "bot" and when the ten games were over you were supposed to identify which games were against the human and which against the "bot".

I would say that one of the ways we should judge the computer programs is if we couldn't do that all that well.

Note that for some of the programs that might mean slightly weakening them below the maximum level at which they could play. For others their "best" algorithm is probabilistic anyway and they won't alwyas make the same move in the same situation.

no. or at least, that's not what _i_ mean. i feel gnugo is very consistently at a certain level. i'm not sure i'd be able to recognize it, tbh. it's just extremely consistent and reasonable. it doesn't tend to make you scratch your head in bewilderment "is he crazy or brilliant or both?", it just plays well, at a certain level. it almost never does something crazy, never tries to "cheat" you, it plays like a machine. i wouldn't call it boring outright, but i'd say humans are much more interesting (more variation). does that make sense? oh, i almost forgot: it counts, which most beginners bellow, say, 5k (?) will never do. that can be very annoying, for instance, it tends to stop fighting and "not give a detritus" if it knows it has points to throw away, that's to the beginner like playing a dan player, but with no comments or explanation from the stronger player. it can be trauma inducing , or at least misleading

When I said boring, I meant that it does not satisfy me in the way that a game of Go usually does; I can't have a conversation during or after the game with my opponent, discussing the game or anything else.

thxs for the warm welcome everyone I joined KGS yesterday my Handle is WakaChu if anyone wants to play ill be on @6pm eastern standard time