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 Post subject: Re: Starcraft II
Post #261 Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:37 pm 
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Araban wrote:
A "new" trick has been discovered for SC2 which, unless Blizzard decides to patch, is definitely going to make the early game more active :P: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmes ... _id=152345 [...] Rumors are going around that Boxer (and Nada, another Terran legend) will be moving to SC2, so you're in luck there. July, Zerg legend, has already been confirmed.
Wow, I'm going to try that. It seems like a sensible way of early game warming up instead of senseless spamming. And Boxer, Nada and July in sc2, that's just awesome. I actually already saw nada play some sc2 in his showmatch with TLO. Though I really dislike TvT (both in playing and watching), I was pretty impressed. I remember July from his "Sauron Zerg", in which he just rallies units from what seem like a thousand hatcheries straight to the enemy base. That was epic.

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Post #262 Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:26 pm 
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Linked in some TL thread I was skimming through. Great Day[9] video about his experiences in SC: http://blip.tv/file/3486428

I don't think he had any of this planned as it turned out, but it's an amazing thing to listen to. Give it a viewing when you have a few hours available. Also, sorry if it's been posted before.

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 Post subject: Re: Starcraft II
Post #263 Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:28 pm 
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ketchup wrote:
Linked in some TL thread I was skimming through. Great Day[9] video about his experiences in SC: http://blip.tv/file/3486428

I don't think he had any of this planned as it turned out, but it's an amazing thing to listen to. Give it a viewing when you have a few hours available.

Yeah, definitely his most famous daily. I won't lie, I teared up a bit in the middle when I first saw that :(. Highly, highly recommended for anyone who hasn't seen it yet. Makes me proud to be a Starcraft player.

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 Post subject: Re: Starcraft II
Post #264 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:36 am 
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Omg, I thought I was a total geek for getting somewhat emotional and really proud to be part of the starcraft community after watching the Day[9] Daily 100. I have watched it several times since. It's a source of inspiration. Whatever weird goals you decide to set for yourself, this video by Day[9] is sure to help you accept your inner geek. Man I liked this video. I might just watch it again tonight.

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 Post subject: Re: Starcraft II
Post #265 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:22 pm 
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Just cheesed in a ladder game for the first time after a very frustrating streak. Oddly enough, it was on Kulas Ravine, a large map that's very difficult to cheese on. Got paired with some ~850 diamond player, PvP. Gambled and sent a scout on 7, got lucky and found him on first guess, then proxy 2 gated. Needless to say, he wasn't very happy and the convo wasn't pleasant...I won, but I can't get this bitter aftertaste out of my mouth. Felt pretty much the same way as when I used to play Go games with SD time settings many years ago and, when I was losing but ahead on time, would make ridiculous plays just to drain my opponent's time and get a dirty win. Oh the shame...Image.

For anyone who's been laddering, how often do you cheese if at all? If so, do you feel bad about it like I did? Or do you accept it as a valid strategy and consider it just as much of an earned win as a 40-minute macro game?

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 Post subject: Re: Starcraft II
Post #266 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:39 pm 
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I almost never cheese, partly because I'm still learning the game and I think it's more helpful to play standard 'good macro', and partly because I always get so nervous and out of my comfort zone that I play much worse than I usually do. Though I think most cheese strategies are aesthetically less appealing, I do think they are valid strategies. You mostly trade some economic solidity for an early advantage. It's a game to win, right? It's not like you're breaking the rules. Serves him right for not scouting (although that might be somewhat harsh on a map like kulas ravine). I think the only bad mannered person in the game you described was the player getting angry for getting caught off guard. Don't worry about it.

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Post #267 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:03 pm 
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I haven't cheesed yet, but I think it's generally because of the attitude that I've carried over from perfect information games.

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Post #268 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:43 am 
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I've never cheesed, simply because I'm trying to improve by focusing on the things that will always apply to most of my games. It also just never really occurred to me to try it, but the suggestion is making me want to. I play all three races so that I'll understand them better even if and when I choose to focus on one, so I should equally get good at some common cheeses to understand how to deal with them better.

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Post #269 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:23 am 
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There's nothing wrong with cheesing, and I think its not useful to think of it that way. I think there's very few cheeses that are purely BO luck, mechanics and game understanding play the ultimate role in the result.

Araban, if you continue to feel bad, take a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIs5HS_oMxU

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Post #270 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:52 am 
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Aphelion wrote:
There's nothing wrong with cheesing, and I think its not useful to think of it that way. I think there's very few cheeses that are purely BO luck, mechanics and game understanding play the ultimate role in the result.

Araban, if you continue to feel bad, take a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIs5HS_oMxU
Totally agree.

That clip proves that cheese doesn't have to rely on your opponent's bad scouting. The only thing I didn't understand was why the other guy didn't go after the second Pylon on top.

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 Post subject: Re: Starcraft II
Post #271 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:47 am 
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Can we create a semi-formal definition of cheese? Everybody seems to have a different idea of what constitutes cheese. Some people will accuse you of cheese for massing whatever unit they don't like, or using cloaked units. Others don't believe in cheese at all or restrict it to very few cases, like cannon rushes. Some would describe any all-in strategy as cheese; I would only use cheese to describe those that abuse a game mechanic in a cheesy way (e.g. static defense or unit producing structures inside your opponents' base, or that proxy evolution chamber rush, etc.) My definition would not include 6-pool as cheese (it would just be a high-risk, all-in strategy).

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 Post subject: Re: Starcraft II
Post #272 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:04 am 
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Liquipedia wrote:
Cheese generally refers to an all-in strategy that relies on surprise to win a game early without serious resistance. A successfully executed cheese attack will catch the enemy early in their opening, while sacrificing early game macro.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Cheese

I disagree. This is cheese:
Image

Everything else is fair game.

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Post #273 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:12 am 
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Araban wrote:
Just cheesed in a ladder game for the first time after a very frustrating streak. Oddly enough, it was on Kulas Ravine, a large map that's very difficult to cheese on. Got paired with some ~850 diamond player, PvP. Gambled and sent a scout on 7, got lucky and found him on first guess, then proxy 2 gated. Needless to say, he wasn't very happy and the convo wasn't pleasant...I won, but I can't get this bitter aftertaste out of my mouth. Felt pretty much the same way as when I used to play Go games with SD time settings many years ago and, when I was losing but ahead on time, would make ridiculous plays just to drain my opponent's time and get a dirty win. Oh the shame...Image.

For anyone who's been laddering, how often do you cheese if at all? If so, do you feel bad about it like I did? Or do you accept it as a valid strategy and consider it just as much of an earned win as a 40-minute macro game?


It's a war and you won.

I'm T and I lost to a proxy 2 gate on Steppes of War last night. It was a very exciting game! My heart was racing when I scouted his base and saw no buildings. I had already scouted my entire base, I didn't find the proxy (behind my nat minerals, I didn't think to check there too), but I knew it was coming so I built a bunker. Intense micro battle, I lost. It was a lot of fun. :)

A lot of posts in this thread complaining about bad manner. This is the internet, I shrug off bad manner. Why waste so much energy getting upset about it? You're playing random unknowns in the internet it's gonna happen. It doesn't really even happen to me all that often, less than 1 in 10 games.

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Post #274 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:28 am 
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Aphelion wrote:
There's nothing wrong with cheesing, and I think its not useful to think of it that way. I think there's very few cheeses that are purely BO luck, mechanics and game understanding play the ultimate role in the result.

Araban, if you continue to feel bad, take a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIs5HS_oMxU
Lol, how is that going to make him feel better? The cheese-victim is absolutely devastated. Omg, I fell off my bean bag watching this, hilarious! The crowd also seems somewhat cruel in their laughter, but then again, Bisu schooled PokJu. Thanks for a fun share.

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Post #275 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:11 pm 
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I honestly do not understand people's issue with "cheese". What's the big deal? Isn't it a normal part of the game? Why do so many people have such a strong negative emotion regarding it? This is the biggest thing that surprises me about the TL forums. For a forum that's after creating a competitive environment, why is there such a negative outlook on cheese? Even the long term, "better" players get very upset about cheese(idra is the easiest example, and he's supposedly the best foreign player). I honestly do not understand why. I feel it's a pretty big part of the game to understand these mechanics as well. Well, that's just me. Can anyone tell me what the big deal is?

I'm trying to think of it in equivalence to go terms, but I honestly can not find a good example. I definitely do not get annoyed at someone playing tengen first move, or when the white player in a high handicap game tries to be extra aggressive. I have more issues with people playing longer than they should, and underestimating someone. In terms of starcraft, a cheese is the exact opposite. It's not about underestimation at all. In fact, in a lot of cases it's used when the opponent is not comfortable with a long drawn out game against certain races/people. I really do not get the negativity.

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Post #276 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:40 pm 
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Most of the ppl on the TL SC2 forums these days are people who joined after SC2 beta or the SC2 release at the very least. They don't have much BW background and aren't indicative of the overall forums. The regulars have given up a little bit on the SC2 forums because its such a whine fest and so full of thrash posts, this has been the case is even before beta was released. I expect (hope for) a major clean up sometime, probably akin to strategy forum ban or something.

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 Post subject: Re: Starcraft II
Post #277 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:27 pm 
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Starcraft II...now taking over Google: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0Stg0f1360

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Post #278 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:24 pm 
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Most sports have a history of creating rules to outlaw cheese. In ice hockey, a team used to be able to just shoot the puck down the length of the ice any time they gained possession, which made it easy to defend even against a better team, and created a slow, boring game. The NHL created the icing rule to force teams to carry the puck out of their end of the ice, improving the pace of the game. Certain tactics in basketball have been patched out with 5-second and 3-second violations. And several sports prevent cheese with offside rules.

So, if the sports part of my brain is thinking "offside!" the RTS part of my brain is thinking "cheese!"

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Post #279 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:02 pm 
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I am new to the world of Starcraft, but I have to assume that the term "cheese" was invented to mean "cheap", i.e. something that has a good chance of winning despite being very simplistic and easy. Think about a fighting game where a certain character has a certain move that's overpowered and difficult to win against, so someone chooses that character and just does that move over and over. That person might be terrible at all other aspects of the game, and so you resent that your superior all-around skill was nullified. You begin to develop a conception of what a "real" match looks like, and you regard anyone who steps outside that conception as rude, like someone stepping outside of social norms of politeness. The problem is that you're playing the game that you want to exist rather than the one that actually does. As you sink deeper into denial, the line begins to blur even between tactics outside of your artificial norms and tactics that beat you. You grow to hate the game, quit, then find a new one, and the cycle begins again...

By the way, I already posted this link in the other thread here, but I'll put it here, too: my newbie Go/Starcraft blog (currently only about Starcraft since that's all I'm playing these days).

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Post #280 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:29 pm 
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Cheese always goes with wine :) Don't bring the wine.


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