GoChild's Entrance->Basic->Jie problem pack

imabuddha · Post by **imabuddha** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:34 pm

Chew Terr wrote:I particularly liked that set of problems because I have a hard time seeing potential (ideally picnic-) ko. I'm a bit better at it than I had been before, though.

Fair enough.

Since there are no explanations on the site and I didn't know jie = ko I was confused about the purpose. After fumbling through ~10 of these I was baffled that the "correct" answers were to start un-winnable kos.

I do understand that doing so can be helpful in the context of a larger game, but I'm skipping the rest of this set.

I've been working through these basic problems because even though most are easy to solve on sight there are a few in most sets that I get wrong at first. I was surprised at how many in "connect & cut" I didn't know! :oops:

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:35 pm

Fair enough! And yeah, connect-and-cut took me quite a while.

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:36 pm

From the Gokyo Shumyo, questions 23 (top) and 74 (bottom):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B 19x19 diagram $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . O X X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O O O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

#23 isn't too hard for me, but # 74... Anyway, see if you can solve either of these.

Also, an example from joseki: Black to live unconditionally in the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X X . . . . $$ | . O O X O X . . . $$ | O X X O . . . . . $$ | . . X O . O . . . $$ | . X X O . O . . . $$ | . O O X X . . . . $$ | . O X . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . .[/go]

imabuddha · Post by **imabuddha** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:40 pm

Dusk Eagle wrote:#23 isn't too hard for me, but # 74... Anyway, see if you can solve either of these.

Black to play & live on both of these?

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:43 pm

No. The the answer to both of the first two problems is a ko for at least one of the sides. If you don't know who it is to play, than solve it for both. I still have yet to solve problem 74 - my point in posting that one was to show that the statement (quote) "it seems obvious how to start a ko" is very dubious. There's an entire section of the [sl=gokyoshumyo]Gokyo Shumyo[/sl] devoted to it.

Edit:

this set seems like developing bad habits.

I couldn't disagree with this more. You must identify what you can do in any situation. If you can live/kill unconditionally, than obviously ko is a failure. If it is impossible to live/kill unconditionally, than to not at least make ko is an even greater failure.

kokomi · Post by **kokomi** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:47 pm

Chew Terr wrote:Fair enough! And yeah, connect-and-cut took me quite a while.

well, in chinese version, that's 'Connect.Cut' so the problem is about either connecting or cutting. I think it does make confusion with 'connect-and cut' :lol:

Shaddy · Post by **Shaddy** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:51 pm

solutions(?)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B 19x19 diagram $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . 1 X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 3 . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . O X X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 8 6 9 , X X X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | 7 5 2 O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 0 4 3 1 X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B 19x19 diagram $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . 1 X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 3 . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . O X X X , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 9 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O X 3 X X X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | 2 1 O O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O X X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 6 7 . X 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

4@1

imabuddha · Post by **imabuddha** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:04 pm

Dusk Eagle wrote:...my point in posting that one was to show that the statement (quote) "it seems obvious how to start a ko" is very dubious. There's an entire section of the [sl=gokyoshumyo]Gokyo Shumyo[/sl] devoted to it.

My statement was in reference to GoChild's Entrance->Basic->Jie problem pack, not to Gokyo Shumyo which I've read is more appropriate for low to mid-dan ranked players.

Dusk Eagle wrote:
this set seems like developing bad habits.

I couldn't disagree with this more. You must identify what you can do in any situation. If you can live/kill unconditionally, than obviously ko is a failure. If it is impossible to live/kill unconditionally, than to not at least make ko is an even greater failure.

I don't want to get in the habit of automatically starting kos. In an actual game starting an un-winnable ko without having useful ko threats elsewhere probably would be "an even greater failure".

xed_over · Post by **xed_over** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:45 pm

imabuddha wrote:
Dusk Eagle wrote:
this set seems like developing bad habits.

I couldn't disagree with this more. You must identify what you can do in any situation. If you can live/kill unconditionally, than obviously ko is a failure. If it is impossible to live/kill unconditionally, than to not at least make ko is an even greater failure.

I don't want to get in the habit of automatically starting kos. In an actual game starting an un-winnable ko without having useful ko threats elsewhere probably would be "an even greater failure".

Its not about automatically starting kos -- its about learning to recognize how to start them when you need to. Since this is the ko/jie problem set, these are examples/sets of problems where we're being told we need to.

imabuddha · Post by **imabuddha** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:09 pm

xed_over wrote:Its not about automatically starting kos -- its about learning to recognize how to start them when you need to. Since this is the ko/jie problem set, these are examples/sets of problems where we're being told we need to.

Maybe I'll go back to that set in the future if I find myself not being able to start a ko when I need to. Given the huge number of other problem sets on GoChild I don't think it will be anytime soon.

tchan001 · Post by **tchan001** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:45 pm

When you do the problems on GoChild, you do realize of course that GoChild is most likely pirating from many Asian go problem books for which it probably has not obtained the permission of the author or the publisher.

Of course if you as a user own physical copies of most every Asian go problem books (in print or out of print), then it wouldn't really be a concern.

imabuddha · Post by **imabuddha** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:10 pm

tchan001 wrote:When you do the problems on GoChild, you do realize of course that GoChild is most likely pirating from many Asian go problem books for which it probably has not obtained the permission of the author or the publisher.

No, actually I don't realize that. Do you have evidence that they are doing so?

tchan001 · Post by **tchan001** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:59 pm

The content is mainly listed by the translated book names. If you have some Asian go books, look at your book and compare with the content on the site.

Does Gochild say "posted with the permission of the publisher"?

Does Gochild offer a selection of the content or the whole of the content of the book?

If you look at the advanced section, check out "Sky Dragon 1000"
It's in two parts with 500 problems each. Now compare with the books "Heavenly Dragon Diagrams 1 & 2" in my blog for the entry "Kweon Kap-yong Problem Books". 500 problems in each of these books.

Now look at the Go Seigen selections in advanced, check out "Long lived stones". There are 200 problems. Now compare with the book "The Long-Lived Stone Is Not Old" in my blog. 200 problems in the book.

I'm sure the copyright for those books are still in effect. They are not exactly ancient go manuals.

imabuddha · Post by **imabuddha** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:20 pm

tchan001 wrote:If you look at the advanced section, check out "Sky Dragon 1000"
It's in two parts with 500 problems each. Now compare with the books "Heavenly Dragon Diagrams 1 & 2" in my blog for the entry "Kweon Kap-yong Problem Books". 500 problems in each of these books.

Now look at the Go Seigen selections in advanced, check out "Long lived stones". There are 200 problems. Now compare with the book "The Long-Lived Stone Is Not Old" in my blog. 200 problems in the book.

I'm sure the copyright for those books are still in effect. They are not exactly ancient go manuals.

Hmm, that is suspicious, but who knows, maybe they have permission? Perhaps you should contact the site & voice your concern. If they don't respond appropriately I'm sure Google will since they host it & have terms which forbid illegal activities.

As I'm still in the Entrance section I haven't really looked at what's in the Advanced. Many of the problems in Entrance were uploaded by a go school in China, and one set was apparently created by one of the site's owners. Perhaps schools in China are allowed to use copyrighted material without permission? I haven't a clue.

daal · Post by **daal** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:45 am

imabuddha wrote:Hmm, well, I guess I just don't see the point of a set of problems for how to start a ko. I mean, it seems obvious how to start a ko.

Interesting that you say that. For me it's often not at all obvious, and there are indeed quite a few problems in the Jie section that I got wrong. There are of course easy kos to start, but it gets a bit trickier when you have to judge whether a group can only be saved by a ko, and there's also the matter of starting the ko in the most advantageous way. In any case, starting a ko is often not on my radar, and I particularly like this set of problems because it's one of the few I've found that specifically deal with ko. Most problem sets deal with ko as an afterthought, one possible route to failure, when it can also be the only possible route to success.

Life In 19x19

GoChild's Entrance->Basic->Jie problem pack

Re: GoChild's Entrance->Basic->Jie problem pack

Re: GoChild's Entrance->Basic->Jie problem pack

Re: GoChild's Entrance->Basic->Jie problem pack

Re: GoChild's Entrance->Basic->Jie problem pack

Re: GoChild's Entrance->Basic->Jie problem pack

Re: GoChild's Entrance->Basic->Jie problem pack

Re: GoChild's Entrance->Basic->Jie problem pack

Re: GoChild's Entrance->Basic->Jie problem pack

Re: GoChild's Entrance->Basic->Jie problem pack

Re: GoChild's Entrance->Basic->Jie problem pack

Re: GoChild's Entrance->Basic->Jie problem pack

Re: GoChild's Entrance->Basic->Jie problem pack

Re: GoChild's Entrance->Basic->Jie problem pack

Re: GoChild's Entrance->Basic->Jie problem pack

Re: GoChild's Entrance->Basic->Jie problem pack