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Offline judicata
 Post subject: Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Post #21 Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:35 pm 
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So - just leaving us hanging?
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Post #22 Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:47 pm 
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Wow, sorry all, I'd completely forgotten about it - most embarrassing!

I'll post the next 10 moves for each tomorrow or the next day, time dependent.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Post #23 Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:51 am 
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Sorry about the delay!

Here are the 8 games again, this time with the first 20 moves.

Game 1:


Game 2:



Game 3:



Game 4:



Game 5:



Game 6:



Game 7:



Game 8:
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Post #24 Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:01 am 
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And current guesses:

Code:
Player       game 1   game 2   game 3   game 4   game 5   game 6   game 7   game 8
dfan         3d       10k      12k      4d       2k       15k      5k       3d
zinger       -        -        9d/pro   -        -        -        -        -
Shaddy       -        -        9d/pro   -        -        -        -        -
Kirby        -        5d       -        -        -        -        -        -
tj86430      1d       9k       6k       2k       3d       7k       4k       5d
judicata     2d       16k      5d       4k       3d       16k      5k       5d
daniel_ts    12k-9d   20k-5k   20k-10k  15k-5k   15k-5k   15k-5k   10k-9d   10k-9d
Harleqin     2k       7k       4d       1k       4d       11k      6k       2d
Chew Terr    3d       2k       9d/pro   6k       12k      20k      15k      2d
Araban       2d-5d    14k-9k   6d-9d    8d-4k    8k-4k    14k-9k   8k-4k    3k-1d
hyperpape    -        12k-4k   -        -        10k-19k  -        -        5d-6d
Gresil       10k+     15k      1d+      10k      1d+      20k      4k-1k    1d-6d
wossname     -        -        9d/pro   -        -        -        -        -
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Offline Gresil
 Post subject: Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Post #25 Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:43 am 
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I generally agree with my first round guesses.
1. 10k
2. 15k
3. high dan amateur or pro
4. 8-15k
5. dan level (can't quite estimate this one)
6. 20k
7. 2k
8. 2d

The first game confuses me. Most people recognize dan-level play but the top left doesn't look very remarkable for black to me. Not that I have a deep knowledge of whatever it is they're trying to get there.

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Offline Koosh
 Post subject: Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Post #26 Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:09 pm 
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I might as well give this a try too, even though I wasn't on board from the beginning.

Game 1: Low Dan (1-2dan)
Game 2: 10-12kyu. M4 seems a little scared.
Game 3: Professional level.
Game 4: 4-5dan. Experimental feel to it.
Game 5: Professional level.
Game 6: 15kyu-20kyu.
Game 7: 10-12kyu.
Game 8: High dan. 6-7dan.


Honestly, my fuseki drags me down a bit sometimes.
I wouldn't be surprised if the games I marked as pro are actually 10kyu. :mrgreen:

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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Post #27 Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:31 pm 
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Hmm, might have been worth hiding the first round results. If I had more focus, I could refuse to check my guesses against the strong players in the thread, but...

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Offline Fredrik
 Post subject: Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Post #28 Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 4:18 am 
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After seeing only the first moves:

1: W is probably trying some tricks, so around ~ 3d
2: 7k
3: W: Chang Hao
4: 2k
5: 5d (Actually I initally put lower-dan, but I try to spread the ranks around as OP probably did that :) )
6: 15k
7: 9k
8: 6-7d KGS (seems like some kind of blitz bullshit game ^^)

After update:

1: I stick to 3d
2: I stick to 7k
3: I'm quite positive I've seen the game in question with Chang Hao playing as White.
4: 2k was a bit harsh, but still really hard to judge because of Blacks unorthodox. Perhaps around 5d.
5: White is strong enough to play O3, so it's strong players for sure. 5d+, but I would say around professional.
6: 15k was too mild, 20k.
7: 9-12kish seems reasonable. I stick to 9k.
8: I stick to 6-7d KGS, some blitz game..
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Offline tj86430
 Post subject: Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Post #29 Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:37 am 
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thanks to the other thread I now know that #3 is pro.

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Offline Harleqin
 Post subject: Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Post #30 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:43 am 
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My guesses after 20 moves:


  • Game 1: I do not like what White is doing in the upper left. It
    could still be any strength from 3 kyu to 9 dan, though. I put them
    at 3 dan now.
  • Game 2: Moves 7 to 11 look quite clueless to me, move 12 is too
    close to the rather thick black group, move 14 is too timid. However,
    the players seem to know about the need for a base and access to the
    centre. I put them at 6 kyu now.
  • Game 3: I would have said "somewhere in the strong dan region" and
    put them at 5 dan for now, but in another thread, this game has been
    shown as professional.
  • Game 4: I do not like move 7, since Black already has a (loose)
    pincer in place, and I do not see why Black does not jump at least
    once before counterpincering at move 15. Other than that, basic
    shapes seem to be known, so I put them at 1 dan for now.
  • Game 5: Move 9 strikes me as odd, but move 18 really looks like a
    blunder to me. 3 kyu, say I.
  • Game 6: Completely clueless, board too big. 12 kyu, perhaps.
  • Game 7: Move 5 and 8 are odd already, but the next 10 moves really
    show the kyu players. I put them at 5 kyu for now.
  • Game 8: Black seems to have a plan for the centre, but I am not
    yet sure whether it is sound. White is quite calm, so I think that
    these players cannot be too weak. I say 2 dan for now, but I think
    the next 10 moves will really help in the assessment.

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Post #31 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:56 am 
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Before: Chew Terr 3d 2k 9d/pro 6k 12k 20k 15k 2d
After: Chew Terr 3d 2k 9d/pro 1k 1d 20k 15k 2d

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Offline judicata
 Post subject: Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Post #32 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:09 am 
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For reference, my guesses from the first round:
1. 2 dan. The diagonal fuseki makes this look a little odd, and jumping right into the corner at 9 seems a little early to me, though it IS a large knight's response. I'm pretty sure black can safely tenuki from the lower right, though I imagine he'd still like sente to come back. All in all, nothing too off-base here.

2. 16 kyu. (Watch, this will turn out to be a pro game). From my unscientific observation, I don't see DDks open with 3-3 often--usually I see it from people who are experimenting. But, 7 is weird. I don't see black getting securable influence out of it. Also, I would think a 12kyuish player would habitually enclose the 3-4 before approaching (though this isn't saying the approach is wrong).

3. 5 dan. Why, you ask? White 6 is obviously weird but, for some reason, White 8 and 10 seem to reflect an deep experimental strategy. I haven't read it out, obviously, but I'm going with my gut on this. So, 5 dan it is.

4. 4 kyu. Again, a bit of an odd fuseki, but it has some principled basis, I think. White's approach seems reasonable on some level, but the upper left might become urgent afterwards.

5. 3 dan. I couldn't decide between 12 kyu and 3 dan. . Through these moves, black shows an enormous moyo strategy. Black 5 and White 6 are odd, but not unplayable. Black 7 is what tells me "12 kyu," and the non-pincer at 9 might tell me the same. Low confidence about this one.

6. 16 kyu. Black 5 is weird, but whatever. White 6, though... I just can't imagine the reasoning for this, and the moves through 10 seem to fight over 7 points in the opening.

7. 5 kyu. I think I understand the thought behind black 9 -- Black doesn't want to be one-space-low-pincered with the small knight's move approach, so black chooses this one-perhaps thinking white might defend the corner. But, I dunno.

8. 5 dan. Why? because it seems intentionally random, as if there is an express or implied agreement not to play fuseki/joseki moves. At the same time, both players are in playable positions.


And second round thoughts:

1. Same (2 dan). The continuation doesn't really change anything for me.

2. Same. (16kyu) I don't have any additional comments. Nothing is dying yet, but this still looks goofy.

3. Same (5d), but I could revise to pro. I doubt I could tell the difference between an amateur 5dan and a pro anyway. (I'm not saying there aren't differences, of course there is a HUGE difference, but it is nearly imperceptible at my level).

4. Same (4 kyu).

5. Same I guess (3 dan). I'm still conflicted about this one, but definitely not a DDK.


6. Same (16 kyu). I would base this on 6-14 alone.

7. Same (5 kyu). I don't think any stronger. Now that I look at it, I think black 7 is a mistake; not an aweful move, but I think Q14 is better for getting some territory on the left side in this situation (assuming that is what black is trying to do). If there was already a white stone around R 9, I'd think differently.

8. Same (5 dan). Funky game, but I think both of these players are stronger than me. Of course, even an SDK could play out these moves so far, but I still think 5 dan.
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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Post #33 Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:46 am 
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1. 4k-3d
2. 12k-6k
3. 1d-9d really weird, but seems ok for both...
4. 7k-2d
5. 9k-1k
6. 25k-13k I'm certain this is a ddk game, more certain about this one than any of the others.
7. 10k-5k
8. 1d-5d


EDIT: those of you who did not change your guesses: O.o

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Post #34 Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:19 pm 
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Will post the next ten moves tomorrow, as I think up to 30 is useful, and will announce the results next weekend :)

EDIT: Bah humbug, wedding plans took priority, but this won't be forgotten!
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Offline PYves
 Post subject: Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Post #35 Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:26 am 
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I had only looked at the first 10 moves, updated rating added in brackets, after reading the whole thread...
#1: 1kyu? (1-dan after 20) hard to say so far it's only standard moves, but white is at least consistant in all his stones aiming for influence.

#2: 6 kyu (2kyu after 20) black plays an uncommon move and white answers a bit passively. the 3-3 leads me to think it could be someone stronger as I rarely see 3-3 by anyone (much less weaker than 5 kyu)

#3: 1dan (4dan after 20) - overly complicated for white. handles himself nicely

#4: 3 kyu. (3kyu after 20) Could be any rank, but I can imagine pros cringing at having to play p14 and pushing black along the 4th line.

#5: 4dan (4dan after 20) - seems pretty balanced,

#6: 15k (20 kyu after 20). playing on the 2nd line in the fuseki is not a good idea. first line even worse.

#7: 2dan (1kyu after 20) - nothing strange, L16 seems like a weird shape.

#8: 6dan (6 dan after 20)- double 6-4, strange fuseki.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Post #36 Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:53 pm 
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Here's the third and final installment :)

Game #1
[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[white]PB[black]
;B[pd]
;W[dd]
;B[dp]
;W[po]
;B[pq]
;W[mp]
;B[fc]
;W[cg]
;B[cc]
;W[dc]
;B[cd]
;W[de]
;B[db]
;W[eb]
;B[cb]
;W[ec]
;B[ce]
;W[cf]
;B[fb]
;W[fd]
;B[gd]
;W[fe]
;B[hc]
;W[cn]
;B[fp]
;W[fm]
;B[ea]
;W[ge]
;B[he]
;W[hf])[/sgf-full]

Game #2
[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[white]PB[black]
;B[pd]
;W[cq]
;B[pp]
;W[dc]
;B[nc]
;W[qn]
;B[on]
;W[rp]
;B[qq]
;W[qk]
;B[lp]
;W[iq]
;B[fq]
;W[kr]
;B[lr]
;W[io]
;B[fo]
;W[do]
;B[hr]
;W[ir]
;B[hq]
;W[hp]
;B[gp]
;W[gn]
;B[en]
;W[dn]
;B[em]
;W[fn]
;B[eo]
;W[ln])[/sgf-full]

Game #3
[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[white]PB[black]
;B[pd]
;W[dd]
;B[qp]
;W[dp]
;B[oq]
;W[np]
;B[nq]
;W[qf]
;B[nd]
;W[qo]
;B[po]
;W[pn]
;B[pp]
;W[qi]
;B[qe]
;W[pf]
;B[qk]
;W[on]
;B[pl]
;W[qm]
;B[nl]
;W[mn]
;B[mg]
;W[nj]
;B[ll]
;W[lj]
;B[kn]
;W[mq]
;B[mi]
;W[mj])[/sgf-full]

Game #4
[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[white]PB[black]
;B[qd]
;W[pp]
;B[de]
;W[co]
;B[jc]
;W[oc]
;B[md]
;W[oe]
;B[pf]
;W[of]
;B[pg]
;W[qb]
;B[qn]
;W[ql]
;B[qj]
;W[pn]
;B[po]
;W[oo]
;B[qo]
;W[pm]
;B[qp]
;W[pq]
;B[qq]
;W[qr]
;B[rr]
;W[pr]
;B[rs]
;W[rm]
;B[rn]
;W[qm])[/sgf-full]

Game #5
[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[white]PB[black]
;B[pd]
;W[dd]
;B[pq]
;W[cp]
;B[fp]
;W[dn]
;B[kp]
;W[qn]
;B[qj]
;W[pp]
;B[qp]
;W[qq]
;B[rq]
;W[qr]
;B[po]
;W[op]
;B[qo]
;W[nq]
;B[rr]
;W[pr]
;B[pn]
;W[no]
;B[dj]
;W[dq]
;B[cf]
;W[fc]
;B[mr]
;W[lq]
;B[mq]
;W[lp])[/sgf-full]

Game #6
[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[white]PB[black]
;B[pd]
;W[dp]
;B[pp]
;W[ed]
;B[df]
;W[mq]
;B[nq]
;W[nr]
;B[or]
;W[mr]
;B[oq]
;W[os]
;B[ps]
;W[ns]
;B[qr]
;W[pg]
;B[qf]
;W[pf]
;B[oe]
;W[qe]
;B[rd]
;W[pe]
;B[re]
;W[rf]
;B[qg]
;W[rg]
;B[qh]
;W[pi]
;B[ph]
;W[oh])[/sgf-full]

Game #7
[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00]
PW[white]PB[black]
;B[qd]
;W[dd]
;B[dq]
;W[pp]
;B[dn]
;W[od]
;B[qg]
;W[kd]
;B[gc]
;W[ic]
;B[db]
;W[df]
;B[dc]
;W[cc]
;B[cb]
;W[bc]
;B[bb]
;W[ed]
;B[hc]
;W[ib]
;B[he]
;W[qc]
;B[rc]
;W[pc]
;B[rb]
;W[pf]
;B[qf]
;W[mp]
;B[cj]
;W[ch])[/sgf-full]

Game #8
[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[white]PB[black]
;B[nd]
;W[dc]
;B[np]
;W[dq]
;B[dj]
;W[qp]
;B[qq]
;W[rq]
;B[pq]
;W[ro]
;B[de]
;W[ce]
;B[cf]
;W[cd]
;B[df]
;W[fc]
;B[do]
;W[co]
;B[cn]
;W[cp]
;B[dn]
;W[fq]
;B[pj]
;W[lq]
;B[pp]
;W[po]
;B[oo]
;W[pn]
;B[on]
;W[ql])[/sgf-full]
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Post #37 Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:05 pm 
Tengen
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Posts: 4511
Location: Chatteris, UK
Liked others: 1589
Was liked: 656
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
And current guesses:

Code:
Player       game 1   game 2   game 3   game 4   game 5   game 6   game 7   game 8
dfan         3d       10k      12k      4d       2k       15k      5k       3d
zinger       -        -        9d/pro   -        -        -        -        -
Shaddy       -        -        9d/pro   -        -        -        -        -
Kirby        -        5d       -        -        -        -        -        -
tj86430      1d       9k       6k       2k       3d       7k       4k       5d
judicata     2d       16k      5d       4k       3d       16k      5k       5d
daniel_ts    4k-3d    12-6k    1-9d     7k-2d    9k-1k    25k-13k  10k-5k   1k-5d
Harleqin     3d       6k       5d       1d       3k       12k      5k       2d
Chew Terr    3d       2k       9d/pro   1k       1d       20k      15k      2d
Araban       2d-5d    14k-9k   6d-9d    8d-4k    8k-4k    14k-9k   8k-4k    3k-1d
hyperpape    -        12k-4k   -        -        10k-19k  -        -        5d-6d
Gresil       10k+     15k      1d+      10k      1d+      20k      4k-1k    1d-6d
wossname     -        -        9d/pro   -        -        -        -        -
Koosh        1-2d     10-12k   9d/pro   4-5d     9d/pro   15-20k   10-12k   6-7d
Fredrik      3d       7k       9d/pro   5d       9d/pro   20k      9k       6-7d
PYves        1d       2k       4d       3k       4d       20k      1k       6d


Please can people try to be specific for the last round :) Where the players (black vs white in each) are not the same rank, I will award points to the closest (so 1k vs 1d I would award 7 points for 4d and 7 points for 4k, as they are both 3 stones off _one_ of the players)
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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Post #38 Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:06 pm 
Gosei
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1. 1d-4d
2. 7k-4k
3. We all know it's a pro game... it's finally starting to look like it
4. 7k-2k I think 24 is bad, can't black cut at P4?
5. 5k-2d M3 was interesting and seems to work.
6. 25k-15k Frighteningly awful
7. 5k-2k
8. 2d-5d

EDIT: Oh ok I'll be specific:

1. 3d
2. 5k
3. 9d We all know it's a pro game... it's finally starting to look like it
4. 3k I think 24 is bad, can't black cut at P4?
5. 2d M3 was interesting and seems to work.
6. 18k Frighteningly awful
7. 2k
8. 3d

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Post #39 Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:26 pm 
Gosei
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KGS: Chew
First: Chew Terr 3d 2k 9d/pro 6k 12k 20k 15k 2d
Second: Chew Terr 3d 2k 9d/pro 1k 1d 20k 15k 2d
Final: Chew Terr 3d 5k (Deranked for move 28, which seems bad aji-keshi) 9d/pro 6k 8k 20k 13k 2d

This is hard.

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Offline PYves
 Post subject: Re: Fuseki Schmuseki #1
Post #40 Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:33 pm 
Dies in gote

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Rank: CGA 4dan
KGS: pyv
not changing my answers.

#1: 1dan. white is at least consistant in all his stones aiming for influence. lacks efficiency in his stones.

#2: 2kyu. black plays an uncommon move and white answers a bit passively. the 3-3 leads me to think it could be someone stronger as I rarely see 3-3 by anyone (much less weaker than 5 kyu)

#3: pro game - overly complicated for white. handles himself nicely

#4: 3 kyu. Could be any rank, but I can imagine most strong players cringing at having to play p14 and pushing black along the 4th line.

#5: 4dan - seems pretty balanced,

#6: 20kyu. playing on the 2nd line in the fuseki is not a good idea. first line even worse.

#7: 1kyu - nothing strange, L16 seems like a weird shape.

#8: 6dan - double 6-4, strange fuseki.
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