funny problem from a game

Shaddy · Post by **Shaddy** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:15 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , O O . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . B . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O B O O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O X O O X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . O , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black to play the best move with marked stones, also, find white's best defense. (idea's to escape, not sacrifice! it doesn't matter if the black group will be heavy, black can save the move for later when the group won't be so heavy) The problem may be flawed, I didn't take a huge amount of time looking for every variation

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:29 pm

schilds · Post by **schilds** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:16 am

Chew Terr wrote:Maybe something like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 7 . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , O O . 3 1 O 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . B . 6 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O B O O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O X O O X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . O , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

white can't possibly care about being cut, he will win any capturing race ...

I don't think black can escape.

HermanHiddema · Post by **HermanHiddema** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:29 am

Shaddy wrote:Black to play the best move with marked stones, also, find white's best defense. (idea's to escape, not sacrifice! it doesn't matter if the black group will be heavy, black can save the move for later when the group won't be so heavy) The problem may be flawed, I didn't take a huge amount of time looking for every variation

Starting like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Reference diagram $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , O O 1 . 3 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . B . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O B O O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O X O O X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . O , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

there are a lot of options.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm4 Diagram 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 3 . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 0 6 O 2 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , O O X 4 X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X 9 8 X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O X O O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O X O O X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . O , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

and

don't work because of this ladder.

White can throw in at :b7:

with

first, but that will only lead to ko

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm4 Diagram 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O 4 8 . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , O O X 1 X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . 5 X 2 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O X O O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O X O O X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . O , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

at

The ladder doesn't work because of the marked stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm12 Diagram 3 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 . B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 W 4 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O X X 7 . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , O O X X X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O X O O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O X O O X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . O , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

at

White can squeeze again, but after :w20:

there is no way to prevent a black escape.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm4 Diagram 4 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , O O X . X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . X . 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O X O O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O X O O X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . O , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Playing at black's vital point in the previous diagrams with white is an obvious failure.

Conclusion:
It seems that the best white can get is the ko variation on diagram 1, if capturing these stones is absolutely vital.

schilds · Post by **schilds** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 4:30 am

Herman, in your diagram 1, doesn't white simply capture black?

HermanHiddema · Post by **HermanHiddema** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:18 am

schilds wrote:Herman, in your diagram 1, doesn't white simply capture black?

It's 2 libs to 2 libs and white to play, no ladder.
[edited out]I said something about the ko, but turns out I was confused until I re-read your comment for diagram 1.

Shaddy · Post by **Shaddy** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:24 am

My solution was this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , O O . 4 1 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . B . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O B O O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O X O O X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . O , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black can't really save the marked stones. But he can get a lot of compensation if w captures them. Other possibilities:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , O O . . 1 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . B . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O B O O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O X O O X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . O , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , O O 3 2 1 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . B . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O B O O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O X O O X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . O , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , O O 2 4 1 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . B 3 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O B O O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O X O O X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . O , . X . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

edit: fixed some stuff

DrStraw · Post by **DrStraw** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 4:54 pm

If the goal is simply to capture or save the stones regardless of shape then they are dead. Playing the sequence out though would be very bad tactics - better to let black escape.

Life In 19x19

funny problem from a game

funny problem from a game

Re: funny problem from a game

Re: funny problem from a game

Re: funny problem from a game

Re: funny problem from a game

Re: funny problem from a game

Re: funny problem from a game

Re: funny problem from a game