Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:28 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm21 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . 0 . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Good thing is, there is still aji due to the marked stone:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O . O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, I don't think that yithril will take care of it right now. I predict he will approach the top right:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . W . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The game is still playable for me, so I feel OK.

yithril · Post by **yithril** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:47 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm31 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:53 pm

@yithril: Why not this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm21 Has Captured: B - 3, W - 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 7 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Post by **Solomon** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:11 pm

yithril · Post by **yithril** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:21 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 7 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Interesting move

I thought it was blunt at first but those moves are usually the most severe. In this case, I read out two ways, the "Ok let's just shake hands and part ways" and the "You die now!!!!" way.

The Kumbaya method

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X X 3 O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 2 1 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The crowd pleaser move

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm21 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X X 4 O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 2 1 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

4 is the key.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm21 Has Captured: B - 3, W - 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X X 4 O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O X O X 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | 6 2 1 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black has to take at 7, unless he enjoys crawling on the first line, speaking of which.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Has Captured: B - 3, W - 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X X X O O . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O 3 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O X O X 2 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | X X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Can't resist so have to crawl.

By the way the game is perfectly fine for Black, 100% playable no question.

ethanb · Post by **ethanb** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:09 pm

yithril wrote:
I'm not saying your sequence is wrong, I'm just saying be careful of the order of moves. Secondly the sequence I learned I learned from two professionals, but to be perfectly honest, that doesn't mean much. I don't care about a sequence being "correct" at all. I just care about finding better moves. Worrying if something is absolutely correct is a straightjacket.
I'm new to forums so bear with me if I screw up this quoting stuff

@yithril: thanks! It's also possible I misremembered something, but like I said, I'm pretty positive on the final shape... But yeah, order of moves is everything.

However, for future reference - in these Malkovich games, it's generally assumed that the players will not read any commentary that's hidden and not specifically directed at them until after the game is over or at least until the audience/commenters say it's ok. (so as not to disrupt the natural flow of the game)

schilds · Post by **schilds** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:31 pm

You did quote him visibly, and it's not unusual to interpret that as implying your reply is directed at the person being quoted.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:29 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm31 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

First, I think that pincering is out of the question. It's my first instinct, but white is pretty strong on the top, so my pincer stone would become almost immediately under attack. For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O . O X . . . . . 1 . O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . 4 . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I could, then, pincer a bit further away... But if I do that, I am close to the white power on top, and still don't have comfortable breathing room to make a good base.

Therefore, I will just play normally for now. I considered three options, "a" and "b", and "c":

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm31 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b a . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I like playing "c" because it might induce white to play 3-3 and I can counter his power at the top. But I think it's too lax. White doesn't have to attack, and "c" does not have good central influence. For the same reason, I didn't like "a" - I don't have a lot of say in the center.

So I'd better stick my head out, keeping some center influence with "b". I think it's the best choice for this position.

What do you guys think?

ethanb · Post by **ethanb** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:14 am

schilds wrote:You did quote him visibly, and it's not unusual to interpret that as implying your reply is directed at the person being quoted.

Good point, that's my fault - but I think he also might have replied to Araban in his last commentary.

yithril · Post by **yithril** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:35 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm31 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby's move makes perfect sense, playing high to limit my influence towards the top. I thought of a couple things but decided this was the most active way to play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm31 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . 4 . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Sliding is out of the question because Black can play 34 or just defend the right side at around A if he doesn't like complicated stuff) to maintain the center which is what he wants since he has the two star point stones on the bottom. Black wouldn't take the 3,3 point and White is not after just making territory when he is still behind. I have to be aggressive.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm31 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think in an even game if I had influence at the top like this I'd expand by jumping at 33. Again, sliding or jumping in the corner for territory is contradictory with the strategy behind the stones White already has down on the board because it doesn't add value. It might be slow because Black will have a chance to defend the side but again in an even game that's his right. Here it'd be too slow.

Jedo · Post by **Jedo** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:47 am

k1ndofblue · Post by **k1ndofblue** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:20 am

The large knights move is also recommended by Michael Redmond in the ABC's of Attack and Defense for 3 stone games.

Bill Spight wrote:Easy fuseki.

$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . a . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . a . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
On the top half of the board, Go Seigen suggests in even games, because it makes for a relatively easy opening for Black. White does not have a severe pincer.

In a three stone game I like "a", on the theory that high moves tend to work with the handicaps stones.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:39 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm31 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

OK, so I think that there are a few common answers to consider in this position. I'll label the ones that I thought about in the diagram below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm31 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . d . . . | $$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . a . e . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

First of all, I think that both "d" and "e" are probably weak responses. The following exchange, for example, seems much better for white than for black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . x . . . | $$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The reason I think this is because

, in the diagram above, only cares about grabbing corner territory - and it doesn't even do that well, because white can still slide in at "x", for example.

Similarly, a move like "d" in the original diagram still leaves the side open here at "y":

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm31 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . B . . . | $$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . y . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The point of my last game move was not to make territory, but rather to stick my head out and fight for the center influence that's available on the board. Furthermore, I think I read somewhere before that the two white stones here are not weak, but strong... So the idea should be to attack.

So one way to do this is with "a" from the original diagram. It is OK, but I think it is also pretty easy on white. For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 H $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O . O X . . . . f . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . h . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . g . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White has the moves "f", "g", and even "h", so he doesn't really have to worry about a serious threat from my play at

in the diagram above. There's not a lot of pressure on white, and white can still decide how he wants to control the game.

So I think a much more active method is to pincer. In addition to pressuring white, it works well with the bottom right star point.

While black "a" from the original reference diagram certainly provides some use to me, I think that it doesn't provide me as much benefit from a whole-board perspective as a pincer does, since a pincer works well with the bottom right stone. Plus, the two black stones in the top right are pretty strong still, I think, so it is more balanced to pincer.

So the question is, which pincer do I select? I considered a one-space pincer and a two space pincer. I ended up selecting a two space pincer, because it is a bit harder for white to counter attack, compared to a one-space pincer...

Let's see where yithril goes next!

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:47 am

ethanb wrote:
schilds wrote:You did quote him visibly, and it's not unusual to interpret that as implying your reply is directed at the person being quoted.
Good point, that's my fault - but I think he also might have replied to Araban in his last commentary.

This is Jon's first Malkovich game, and I think he just wasn't aware of the hide tag thing.

yithril · Post by **yithril** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:37 pm

..............

AGGGGGGHHHHHH!

Alright so Kirby's move is pretty much perfect. It should be a two space and not a one space, so he played fine because the one space allows me to sabaki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm31 Has Captured: B - 4, W - 3 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O . O X . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X O . O . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 7 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I wouldn't play this straight out but if it's one space White has 7 to fall back on to make shape. Actually maybe I would play it straight out who knows. With two spaces this possibility doesn't exist.

Someone who is 2-3 stones weaker isn't so much weaker that you can just dance around them with reading in the beginning of the game. In two stone games you win with endgame and with 3 stone games you can go for some chaos in the middle game and then push as hard as possible in the endgame. In neither case do I see myself gaining a stones worth of handicap in the opening fight (Kirby played fine in the upper left) or even in the second skirmish, so I have to focus on not overplaying too much here. I'll have to think about my next move.

Life In 19x19

Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game

Re: Yithril (4d) vs. Kirby 3 stone game