This is my first post, so firstly I'd like to say thank you to you all for letting me join.

I'm from Spain and I've been playing Go now for about a month and am really quite fascinated by the game. I first read about it in my studies on eastern philosophy (I studied philosophy at university) and am now working through online material and practicing the free online version of many faces of Go-12. For the past few days, without cheating, I am able to draw, beat or just slightly lose against it (around 6.5 points).

Now, after Christmas I wanted to buy myself a nice set which 1) I could treasure for some years; 2) my girlfriend wouldn't mind having around her living room; 3) enjoy my own practice upon; 4) hopefully draw some attraction to the game here in Spain. So I've been looking around at different sites to see what I may be able to purchase. I've checked out many in Europe but they just don't match up to Goban sets being sold in the United States or Japan, neither in general price to what is being offered, nor as often seems the case, in aesthetic look or quality.

I'm hoping to save around 400€ to 500€ which would be about $500 to $700 and taking into the considerations above, and aesthetic appeal have boiled my choice down to:

1) Shodan Imports' Tengen Set ($659+PP) http://shodanimports.com/index.php?main ... cts_id=115

2) Yellow Mountain's Shin Kaya 2.4 http://www.ymimports.com/p-854-shin-kay ... -size.aspx. Their Jitsuyo 9.2mm http://www.ymimports.com/p-983-shell-an ... ze-33.aspx and one of their fancy bowls http://www.ymimports.com/p-841-premium- ... bowls.aspx. Total price would be about $568 or around 400€

3) Kuroki Goishiten's 3 item best buy, perhaps something like this: http://www.kurokigoishi.co.jp/english/o ... ndex2.html. Price would be about $500+PP or 361€+PP.

My questions are:

a) If someone was going to buy you one of these sets which would you go for?

b) Taking into account that Yellow Mountains will deliver to Spain for free and that the postage will be about another $170 from Shodan or Kuroki, which would you go for?

b) Have any of you dealt with the aforementioned companies? Has there been any problems? I've read that Yellow Mountain is a pretty cool site, and that Mr. Thomas from Shodan and Mr. Goishiten are sound people, but as you'll appreciate, I'm still a little nervous sending money to unknown sites.

c) Do you have any other suggestions or avenues you feel I should persue?

I thank you for your time, and look forward to any suggestions you may be able to supply.

Yours sincerely,
qualia

I had purchased the 2" Shin-Kaya board and yunzi stones with jujube bowls from Yellow Mountain Imports and am very happy with the purchase. Of course everyone has their own tastes, but I can tell you for certain that the quality of their product is very good.

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I'm thinking...

Wow, that was super fast! Thank you Jordus You are a gentleman

http://www.ymimports.com/t-free_shipping_over_125.aspx

If you are factoring in "Free Shipping over USD125", you may need to reconsider Yellow Mountain since the free shipping does not seem to apply to Spain.

Shodan Imports and Yellow Mountain are mainly selling equipment imported from overseas to America. So anything shipped from America to Spain will be priced to include the cost of shipping from the place of origin to America.

Kuroki Goishiten is a Japanese manufacturer which ships directly from Japan (no middleman).

BUT the Japanese yen has risen quite a bit against the US dollar in recent months, so if you can find equipment which was ordered and paid for by these importesr from Japan while the yen was much cheaper, then it may be worthwhile.

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http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

Nice nickname!

You may want to check this somewhat related thread: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2095

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Offending ad removed

I dearly love Yellow Mountain. Their products are reasonably priced and their customer support is superb. For standard equipment that you will play on for years and can take from place to place you are hard pressed to do better than YMI.

With that said, I do not like the yellow stain that is used on their Shin-Kaya boards. I own the slotted model and it works great for a portable board, but the color of the stain does not look natural. If you are looking for a set with a traditional Japanese "wood, slate, and shell" look, I have to recommend Kuroki Goishi Ten.

//Sorry YMI

1) Where is that version?

2) Buy the full version I don't think you stand a chance against the full version.
(It is much stronger)

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Promotor and Librarian of Sensei's Library

I bought my set from KGT, and was extremely pleased by the price, quality of service, and the quality of the merchandise. Write-up and picture on my website: http://www.mcelhearn.com/2008/03/04/my-new-go-set/.

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My blog about Macs and more: Kirkville

I would buy from one of us EU sellers, or directly from Asia; not from USA. Or at least think it through really well before.
I don't know how they present their prices but be aware of that they should not charge VAT, BUT it may be charged at delivery (depending on which country it may be less or more likely). Also, again depending on the country, there may be toll to be paid (I don't think so in this case since there is no toll for board games in Sweden and should be the same rules all over EU).
I've made a list of sellers here, it's not complete, but (at least when I made it) pretty OK for EU.

/Mats
PS Changes to the list - new stores, closed down stores etc are welcome. I an not competing on a international level so I have no problems giving my fellow sellers some free advertisment, and nationally they will have a hard time competing with me; all this due to shipping costs.

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mohsart - games & books
http://spel.mohsart.se/

Thank you all ever so much for your swift and informative replies. Thank you

Jordus, thank you for your advice on the YMI goban set.

tchan001, your advice is spot on! I did take it into account delivery costs, but for some reason dumbly assumed YMI would deliver for free to the EU. My innocence, no doubt. It wasn't just because they said exports over $125 would be sent for nothing, but also because when I did a pretend buy and added the information that I was from Spain, the sum total for delivery still came up free. Oh well, Also I didn't realise that being in Europe I would have to pay duty fees, added tax and the what-not. Turns out that it isn't so cheap this import business.

palapiku, thank you. The name qualia is the plural of quale and is a term used to describe our subjective, descriptive quality of experience. For example, a quale might be the qualitative experience you have of the blue night sky, the taste of water, the pain in your headache. In mind-consciousness discourse it is quite a polemic.

tj86430, thanks for the link. I did look about before posting, but didn't find the thread offered. It does raise some nice ideas and suggestions and I've taken note of what has been advised.

Redbeard, thank you for your recommendations. YMI and KGT do seem to come highly recommended but I may have to make a few enquiries at source before considering their offers. I have a terrible feeling I'm going to be stung not only for shipping costs but also import duty, added tax and the such. Maybe I should persude my girlfriend that we visit the States or Japan for holiday and sneak a goban set back home. Trouble is that adventure may take years to sort out.

willemien, I down loaded the go program from here: http://www.smart-games.com/mfgo12-download.html which offers a free evaluation copy. By simply cancelling the registration pop-up it takes you straight away to the option of playing a game. There's no fancy business, no handicaps etc, just you and the computer. I have no idea what kyu it is, or what I am. Last night I won with about 6 points, today lost with about 25. You can also play the GNU program for free here: http://eidogo.com/#gnugo but this just whips me every single time. It is terribly difficult to play.

kirkmc, thank you so much for your recommendation and write-up. It looks like a lovely Goban set and something to treasure and contemplate. It is interesting that you prefer the slimmer stones, I've read that some folk go that way whilst others say they prefer the thicker, more hefty type. I guess it comes down to personal taste. I was wondering, Kirkmc, if I recall collectly you say you are from France and if that is so, did you have to pay duty import fees, added tax etc on your Goban set? As I figure it, the laws for France must be very similar to what they are in the rest of the EU. And just out of enquiry, how much was the postage and insurrance from Japan?

mohsart, thank you for your informative post. Until I read what you had to say I didn't even think about stuff like taxes, duty imports and the such. I just thought, well I'll pay the postage and wait for arrival. I've had a look around your links (some of them are dead) and figure that if there are extra prices to be paid I will buy within the EU. At the end of the day, it's going to be pretty much the same costs if not cheaper. Thanks for putting me on the right road.

Once again, thank you to everyone for their kind replies. If you have any more thoughts, preferences, or general advice, with all sincerity, I'm all ears.

Thank you

Yours
qualia

I didn't have to pay any duties. It's a crap-shoot here regarding duties. If you get a delivery via, say, FedEx or UPS, you'll generally have to pay them (plus the delivery service's extra fees). But when things come by the post office, I think I've only paid duties twice in more than 25 years in France for packages delivered by the post office, and a get _a lot of stuff_ from outside the EU, both personal purchases and samples and review units for my work.

On the other hand, I've heard that in the UK, everything gets hit by duties. I don't know how it is in other EU countries.

As for shipping, I don't recall. The price I listed in the article was the total including shipping. I remember that I took the middle shipping price (not air, but perhaps air speeded), and the set came very quickly (a week or so).

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My blog about Macs and more: Kirkville

ahh you are playing the evaluatiobn version 18 kyu (that is reasonably week)
GnuGo is stronger around 9 kyu
the full version is around 1 kyu

against GnuGo you should have about a 1 in 178 chanche to win
against mfgo (full version) GnuGo has about a 1 in 178 chanche to win

You still have a long way to go

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Promotor and Librarian of Sensei's Library

Thanks kirkmc. I'll have to do a little invvestigation in this, but if it looks like there's a probability of getting stung with extra taxes and the sort, I'll probably buy within the EU. Talk about the myth of 'free market' and the such.

willemien, yeah, you're right. On inspection it looks as if it is an 18kyu bot - whatever that signifies. If 18kyu indicates that one has picked up a few things after a couple of weeks of learning, then it really is an elementary program, but it is helping my play. However, I'm suspicious that any human, say between 25kyu to 18kyu, would play like this. If general kyu Go ranking ranges from 35 to 1, then 18 would be of an intermediate level. I still play and place myself as an elementary beginner.

Are you in France?

The market is free; in fact, such taxes aim to protect those located within a country against unfair competition from companies outside who don't have to charge VAT...

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My blog about Macs and more: Kirkville

I'm in Spain, Kirkmc. Looking at the general prices in the EU, USA and Japan, I have no problem paying post and package and insurrance and that kind of thing. The promise of scare comes, however, if I get stung heavily with import duty and vat. I still can't figure under what category comes Goban sets, but regardless of country, it looks like any import coming into the EU is subject to added tax. If one hasn't been caught, it looks like one has been kind of fortunate.

No the ranking is a bit more complicated. (are there some Japanese things that are simple?)

The lowest are the Kyu ranks numbered from high to low.
Then above that come the Dan ranks numbered from low to high.

and also the progression gets slower and slower...

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Promotor and Librarian of Sensei's Library

That's right, Willemien: accession of rank within kyu indicated by the diminution of number (say, 35 to 1) . 1 clearly being of higher ranking than 35, 18 with the promise of being about intermediate kyu.

From where I'm sitting, still can't believe any 18kyu would play like this free download bot.

the progression isn't linear, as you'll see by yourself if you stick with the game

No, it's just that different countries have different ways of dealing with it. I don't know how it works in Spain; maybe there's someone on the forum in Spain who has ordered such a set.

At worst, you'd be paying VAT plus a bit more. Maybe it's a risk worth taking?

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My blog about Macs and more: Kirkville