79. Marcus (3k) vs. Chew (3k) Open Malkovich

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:07 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I went back and forth on whether or not to play this, at first thinking it was sente. However, no for a while I convinced myself otherwise. My reasoning is here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X O 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

While Marcus's suggestion looks nice (And I may consider that approach later), I think I can get thickness in sente first. If black ignores, we get something like this picture, which has black sealed and against the ropes.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X O a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, I saw this refutation before I posted the move. However, it doesn't work, because I have 'a', then if I'm forced to connect, the push and cut threat works and we become strong in sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . B , . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W C O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This doesn't seem to work either.

Long story short, I'm back to thinking it's sente. It's a tradeoff, I suppose. If it's aji-keshi, it's because it negates the threat of a sente-ish forcing move at R12. Regardless, I've gone back and forth, and decided that this thickness is worth any loss of aji locally. If someone could comment on this move, since I'm not sure if it's joseki, I'd appreciate it.

That approach (D15) is one I haven't seen in a long time, and I was struggling to remember the proper followup. Is your joseki knowledge that much better than mine, or did you look it up? Either is fine for this game, I'm just curious how far behind the power curve I am with respect to joseki knowledge...

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:24 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This does seem like it is sente. At the very least, I can't see a good reason not to respond.

In terms of the press down at D15, there have been a few reviews I've watched recently concerning this press-down, and I've used it recently. I wouldn't have known the continuation I've shown a few weeks ago.

Now, as to the next move ... I like the press-down at D15 for White, but I'm now thinking I want to move away from the typical joseki. There's another answer I haven't tried yet, but I've seen it a few times:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 8 X . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . 3 4 6 . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . a 5 . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think the continuation involves the cut at a, and becomes a mess very quickly. Regardless of which responses I choose, I'll have to read a bit.

As to joseki knowledge, I tend to accumulate it as I see them used. I have a habit of watching a lot of games on KGS of various ranks. I've found that around 5k or so, some players start to experiment with the 5-3, and thus start experimenting with the Taisha. My knowledge of the joseki stems from studying a few of those games and deciding what lines I'm comfortable with, and how to reach them.

Recently, I'm finding that 2k+ players don't shy away from playing Avalanche joseki, so I've learned a little bit about that set of joseki shapes as well.

Don't get me wrong, my knowledge is far from complete. However, my recent thoughts on joseki concern similar shapes among classes of joseki, such as joseki that start with attachments (as above).

A lot of my "joseki knowledge" comes from trying to transpose positions into more familiar shapes. For instance, I could tenuki if you approached at D15, and allow it to become a low approach, possibly to a 3-3 like so:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . X . . 6 . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

All these options, and I've only examined one possible move you could make.

If you don't play D15, none of this matters at all.

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:32 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I kept looking for different ways to play this, but I'm really iintrigued by this move and some of the variations that my opponent showed for it. While it's less likely to get the corner, it seems further out in both directions, which is where I want to be at the moment. As far as what I expect my opponent to play, I expect the original diagram most. It settles fast where he's weak, and while I get a framework, it's undercut, at least.

I really don't expect tenuki, because I think it's too good for me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . X . . 6 . 7 . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This just seems too good for white. It feels like, by the time black stops running or lives in the top left, white would have built more up. Immediately ceding the corner by falling back is interesting, but probably also too much for white. Regardless, I'm expecting the block at the 3-4 armpit hit.

Again, as a result I expect the diagram my opponent posted earlier, reposted here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . 4 2 , . a . . . , . . . O C O X . . | $$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . a . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

All 'a' points look interesting. The leftmost is beautiful with 5, the middle one looks like fun moyo-building, and the rightmost one, which I know the least about, sets me up for influence, or inducing my opponent to force me to make territory (If he took the second 'a', I would have to take the first). Not sure if it's actually good though, or if it'd be forcing him to take what he wants. I'll have to do some more thinking before it gets this far down the line.

Marcus: Sorry to just keep reposting your diagrams, but you cover the options well, so it's hard to add much besides my own opinions on each.

Perception · Post by **Perception** » Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:24 pm

I remember a game between Shusaku and Ota Yuzo (shown below) where the 5-3 high approach joseki that's been talked about was actually played twice.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . , 6 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 7 8 . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$m11 Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . 1 , . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . O . 5 . . . 3 2 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think Invincible gives the following as a more modern alternative

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 2 . . . . 8 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I've spent lot of time reading/studying that book so I just thought that was interesting, don't know if anyone else thinks so though

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:55 pm

Perception wrote:
I remember a game between Shusaku and Ota Yuzo (shown below) where the 5-3 high approach joseki that's been talked about was actually played twice.

$$c Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . , 6 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 8 . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . , 6 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 7 8 . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

$$m11 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . 1 , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . O . 5 . . . 3 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$m11 Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . 1 , . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . O . 5 . . . 3 2 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think Invincible gives the following as a more modern alternative

$$c Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 2 . . . . 8 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 2 . . . . 8 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I've spent lot of time reading/studying that book so I just thought that was interesting, don't know if anyone else thinks so though

Thanks, I had considered that 5, but I didn't know the followup for sure, especially 7. Makes a lot of sense, though. I like joseki that you can kind of assemble move-by-move like this one. Really need to get reading that book. =D

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:55 pm

As I mentioned previously, I had to think carefully about this next move.

One advantage of a game with no time limit is the ability to take time to examine a position like this. Here's the move I decided on:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . 4 . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here are the thoughts I had:

Thoughts continued:

d) The knight's move along the side. I like this move. It's on the 4th line, aiming towards the center. It threatens to live easily on the upper side, right in the shadow of White's wall. Most importantly, it doesn't directly strengthen White along the left side. White is given the choice of taking the corner directly, or making the left side moyo anyways.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . x . X . . . z . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . 4 . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . y . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The marked points x, y, and z are all possible follow ups by White, or perhaps a tenuki will occur. It's a lot harder to predict what White will do here, because, unlike move c, this move doesn't immediately ask for a fight.

e) Two space jump on the 3rd line. This is like the knight's move, offering peaceful variations. However, it feels too flat. The real fight in this game is going to be in the center. I want to make sure I keep up with the influence game.

f) The only pincer I can think of ... but it doesn't seem very good. Black gets split into two weak groups. Now what?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In the end, I'll go with move d. It seems to fit the style of game I want to play here. I want to set up nice, solid groups with access to the center for the coming fight. I want to avoid both giving White too much influence and getting pressed down and sealed into the corners and sides.

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:54 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . 4 . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So, I considered a few moves, but I kept coming back to this one. I considered two things most here: group safety and sente. Of course, the two are strongly related. If your groups aren't safe and you have sente, you don't really have sente, because you are almost forced to defend them or suffer. Unless, of course, you can defend your group in sente, often a hard trick. So, let's look at groups. While the bottom two stones can't be said to be alive on their own, they have so much room on both sides that they are flexible, and won't die on accident. Both top-right groups are alive, of course. We both have enough strength to nearly-certainly grab a second eye if necessary. In the top left, both groups are weak. Unless I can find something amazingly urgent or decide to sacrifice my top-left stone/use it as forcing, I'm going to want to play a move locally there.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . x . X . . . z . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . 4 . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . y . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . w . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Looking at a variant of Marcus's last diagram, we see options for both sides. Black can treat something like x and z as miai. White has things like x and something like y or w as miai for safety, plus the option of taking somewhere around z first, as well. I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with x (I lokoed at this for a bit before typing, in addition to tending towards intuition in this sort of situation). So let's look at x last. That leaves my options at w, y, or z.

Starting with z:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . X . . . 5 . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . 4 . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The most obvious responses seem to go like this: I framework it up, black takes the corner. However, black settling in the corner removes one of my miai, and I have to give up sente to defend the stone if I still want it. Assuming that, that gives black options, like capping 5 at will. In addition to whatever he uses the sente for first. Despite the large size of the framework, this means that the whole gambit comes back to bite more more than I'd like. While 5 is big for points, it does nothing for group safety. This reminds me of what Bill Spight has been showing lately, about how walls with eye potential don't need an extension. So let's look at options that work from the other side.

Option w is similar to y, but it tries to compromise between helping the top and bottom. Let's look at the simpler y first.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . 4 . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This, while stable, is clearly gote. It leaves black both of his miai options, which I'm not happy with. He can take his choice of whichever seems larger, or wait until the surrounding game affects one or the other before deciding. Option w would do the same, for the same reason. While settling on the left makes it start to look like a framework, the framework is much-limited if black gets sente to approach the bottom left. It makes the difference between a one-wall framework to a two-wall/massive corner framework.

For this reason, I'm going to go ahead and look at the final option, x:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . X . . . z . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . 4 . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This move actually affects black's miai options. Seemingly he must take 'z', or be pincered and chased while I seal the top. This move, unlike the others discussed, settles me in one play. Additionally, though it's only a handful of points that I nab, it makes me fairly hard to attack. That means that this is the only way to emerge with (as far as I can see) both safety and sente. While it pains me to give black the big move on top, I can hope to get something like L17 or M17 later, two or three lines shorter than the option at 'z' I considered.

Assuming the logical continuation by black at z, I have tons of options.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . X . . . . 6 . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . 4 . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . e , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . g . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . a . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . f . . . . . . . . b c . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'll look into some of these after we see if Marcus plays on top as I'm expecting.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:44 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . 4 . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The top side is uninteresting, I think. Pushing on my opponent's moyo potential on the left seems essential here.

Unlike my opponent, I don't think his upper left group is completely settled. He could potentially tenuki here, but that leaves me with a lot of possible moves to ruin the left side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . X . . . a . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . 4 . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I want to talk about two local moves that White could make (a and b).

The first one is an attack from the right side. If White plays at a, I will likely begin a contact fight. Something like this might occur:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm22 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . 6 5 1 . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . X . 2 3 . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 . . . x . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O X O . . . | $$ | . . . . 7 8 . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Granted, White does not need to play :w28:

and

, but it does make a large gain on the let side. In exchange, I'm building up central influence, which was the point of my :b21:

... White has been reduced to making territory directly using his wall in the upper right, and the peep at x is becoming more interesting ...

The second local move I wanted to look at was the simple extension (b above).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . 4 . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . 8 . . . . . . . 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . y . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

looks slow, but it feels very useful to me. Separating the black stones looks pretty difficult. My access to the center remains strong, and approaching this group from the top right doesn't seem as urgent as some other points on the board, especially playing under my 5-4 stone at y.

So, what if White tenuki's?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . 4 . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . | $$ | . . w z . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It's quite possible that White feels like his group is fine. in that case he'll play something like :w22:

at Q3. I can't say this is wrong, as it is an important point to attack. However, the points at w and z can be exploited later by Black to reduce the left. The important thing will be to try and wrest sente back to take advantage of it later.

It feels like there are two aspects to this battle over the board: central control, and maintaining sente. It's an interesting fight. That being said, this move is likely going to get a bunch of criticism from observers, I bet. It's definitely not a joseki move in any sense.

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:23 am

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:25 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . 4 . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My opponent's move is surprising to me. It is forcing, sure, but I think it may be better for me than my opponent. I had shown the expected K17, to make a base, right? After my opponent's last move, he still has no base, so will have to keep running or get a base, eventually. Let's change the order of moves. If he made a base, would he still exchange 21 for 22?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . X . . . . 6 . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . 4 . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After B makes a base with 6 here, I think that he's more likely to break up the left side with C9 later. If I were on the third line, I could see pushing on me to keep me low, but here I'll be happy to jump along the fourth line, and aim to cut away black's base, later.

Don't get me wrong, the last move isn't horrible or anything. It just seems like a slightly unfavorable exchange, or aji-keshi, or something.

As far as my move, I'm treating it as forced. Don't want to get sealed in, which would make my opponent's kind of weak group strong. My opponent has sente, but I still expect him to make a base on top. If he does not, I can theoretically get big points on top in sente, which seems unreasonable. The other two options my opponent has are approaching the bottom left or enclosing the bottom right. I just think the top is currently biggest.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:56 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . X . . . . 8 . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . 4 . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:02 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . X . . . . 8 . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . 4 . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 9 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Sorry for the delay. Busy weekend with family in town.

This move is pretty hard to resist. As far as why to play locally here, every other area is more or less settled, so this area has the highest returns for investment at the moment. If black gets to play again here, he gets a perfect enclosure. Now, if black takes an enclosure, I get a stable shape (or at least a forcing move) facing my own growing framework. As far as why I choose this specific play, my opponent and I are both doing our best to build up and out. As a result, I want a move that will be high (for thickness) and towards the left, to work with my own framework. My opponent has an awful lot of potential territory, so I have to be careful. However, if I can limit what he gets on the right and get something reasonable below myself, everything still looks okay. What ends up happening here is dependent at the moment on my opponent, but as I play, I intend to keep in mind that I want both thickness and framework in the south. Choices that I make locally will try to work well with that. I do not expect a pincer, because that would let me do stuff like claiming the corner or double-approaching the 4-5 in his precious moyo. :twisted:

At the moment, I'm not sure who will end up with sente from this region. However, I'll start looking at nonlocal moves I hope to get in.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . X . . . . 8 . . . . O O e . . | $$ | . . . , . . 4 . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . f . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . g 2 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . | $$ | . . b , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 9 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a: This is huge. it's not a safe way to build on the left, but it's so fast and large-scale that it's worth the looseness.
b: Starts to make the top left look like territory, and supports the bottom.
c: Starts to defend the corner, while working on preparing the left. Whether this is important depends on how big the 3-3 invasion is after the bottom right is resolved. If my group reaches the star point or so, the invasion gets big, so this move is also bigger. Obviously, this knight's move can be in the other direction, depending on which side needs more support.
d: Risky. It's too early to invade deeply, though there's the option. The slide at S13 is sente because it threatens to save my dead stone, but that's obviously insufficient to live on its own. The right location to invade also depends on how the bottom right resolves. If the bottom right is super-strong, I may not invade low, I may reduce from high. Or I may keep putting it off, and not get the chance.
e: Points, and extra stability. Don't need it yet, but it's fairly large if I get it eventually.
f: Small at the moment, but good for thickness and preventing my opponent from ever getting much more here. 'a' is unquestionably better, though.
g: We'll have to come back to this fight eventually, but we can't yet. I think we would both tenuki it if played, so it'll have to wait.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:20 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . 3 . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . X . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . O X O . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 4 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:44 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: B=0, W=1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . 3 . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . X . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . O X O . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 4 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Options that I am considering $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . X . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . X . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O X O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . b . . . . . . c . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Followups:
a:

b:

c:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Options that I am considering $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . X . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . X . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O X O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 6 O . 8 . . . , . . . O . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 9 X . . . . . . . . . W . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

bad

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Options that I am considering $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . X . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . X . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O X O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O 6 2 3 . . , . . . O . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 X . . . . . . . . . W . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

bad

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Options that I am considering $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . X . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . X . . , . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O X O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 4 O . . . . . , . . . O . , . . . | $$ | . . 3 5 . X . . . . . . . . . W . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Obviously, these are only a few of the possibilities, but it gives me a reasonable idea of what to expect.
Okay, I was torn between 'a' and 'b' for a while, but I think both are probably fine. However, I kind of like the look of 'a', though it kind of offers up my corner, if my opponent wants it. It pressures well and makes the double-approach hard, so most of the possibilities seem fine for me. Let's see what happens! Also, when it comes down to it... if my opponent is afraid of my moyo, perhaps that's the best sign that I should expand it. :cool:

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:00 am

I apologize for the delay. I've had a rough week, and I'm not familiar with this move. Trying to find a way to turn it into a mistake for you.

Life In 19x19

79. Marcus (3k) vs. Chew (3k) Open Malkovich

Re: 79. Marcus (3k) vs. Chew (3k) Open Malkovich

Re: 79. Marcus (3k) vs. Chew (3k) Open Malkovich

Re: 79. Marcus (3k) vs. Chew (3k) Open Malkovich

Re: 79. Marcus (3k) vs. Chew (3k) Open Malkovich

Re: 79. Marcus (3k) vs. Chew (3k) Open Malkovich

Re: 79. Marcus (3k) vs. Chew (3k) Open Malkovich

Re: 79. Marcus (3k) vs. Chew (3k) Open Malkovich

Re: 79. Marcus (3k) vs. Chew (3k) Open Malkovich

Re: 79. Marcus (3k) vs. Chew (3k) Open Malkovich

Re: 79. Marcus (3k) vs. Chew (3k) Open Malkovich

Re: 79. Marcus (3k) vs. Chew (3k) Open Malkovich

Re: 79. Marcus (3k) vs. Chew (3k) Open Malkovich

Re: 79. Marcus (3k) vs. Chew (3k) Open Malkovich

Re: 79. Marcus (3k) vs. Chew (3k) Open Malkovich

Re: 79. Marcus (3k) vs. Chew (3k) Open Malkovich