Bill Spight wrote:is a 4 1/6 point sente (assuming that Black cannot stand the ko).
Next,(or a White play at 1) gains 1 5/6 points.
Next,
Frequent Yose Position - Which is the Better Move?
-
topazg
- Tengen
- Posts: 4511
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:08 am
- Rank: Nebulous
- GD Posts: 918
- KGS: topazg
- Location: Chatteris, UK
- Has thanked: 1579 times
- Been thanked: 650 times
- Contact:
Re: Frequent Yose Position - Which is the Better Move?
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: Frequent Yose Position - Which is the Better Move?
Oops! I goofed.Bill Spight wrote:Here is what I get for the interesting position in emeraldemon's game:
Black should throw in at
. After 
the next play gains 1/3 (Black will capture the three White stones in the process).So the sente is worth only 3 2/3 points.
Edit: I see that there are additional complications, but I have to run now.
OK, I'm back.
Well, I goofed all right, but not in the way that I thought.
On the assumption that I originally made, Black cannot stand this ko (which also arises if Black plays
at 
). So I got the right answer the first time.Let this be a lesson to me.
Just because you get the right answer doesn't mean you're right. Be thorough.The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
ndkrempel
- Beginner
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:59 pm
- Rank: BGA 3 dan
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: ndkrempel
Re: Frequent Yose Position - Which is the Better Move?
You didn't show the variations when black plays first and white tenukis. Can't black go on to capture 3 stones in gote by exploiting the life&death issue of the corner? Doesn't that make it more than 4 1/6 points sente?
-
ndkrempel
- Beginner
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:59 pm
- Rank: BGA 3 dan
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: ndkrempel
Re: Frequent Yose Position - Which is the Better Move?
Ok, on reflection I don't think black can capture any stones, but seems like black can gain a couple of extra points beyond the obvious ones, so still worth looking into the variations when black plays first and white tenukis.
-
ndkrempel
- Beginner
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:59 pm
- Rank: BGA 3 dan
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: ndkrempel
Re: Frequent Yose Position - Which is the Better Move?
Ok, apologies for the multiple posts, but thought I should put some substance to my comments. Here is the best I can see for black playing first:
(The final move is to avoid a seki.)
Note that black got the 7 move in sente here, which he doesn't get in most variations where white has played 5 first.
(The final move is to avoid a seki.)
Note that black got the 7 move in sente here, which he doesn't get in most variations where white has played 5 first.
-
Dusk Eagle
- Gosei
- Posts: 1758
- Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:02 pm
- Rank: 4d
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 378 times
- Been thanked: 375 times
Re: Frequent Yose Position - Which is the Better Move?
Impressive analysis Bill 
. One question:
Black doesn't actually have to respond to this move, as white is not actually threatening to capture the four black stones. However, white can then fill in in sente: This result is -3. So, if black were to play like this, white would have gained -3/2 points with each move. Since this is worse than the result you showed for black, black should have captured rather than let white protect it in sente. Is my analysis correct?
. One question: Black doesn't actually have to respond to this move, as white is not actually threatening to capture the four black stones. However, white can then fill in in sente: This result is -3. So, if black were to play like this, white would have gained -3/2 points with each move. Since this is worse than the result you showed for black, black should have captured
rather than let white protect it in sente. Is my analysis correct?We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: Frequent Yose Position - Which is the Better Move?
The sequence -- White takes two stones, Black takes back, White plays atari, Black connects on the second line, White takes ko --, should be considered as a unit (except for ko threats). This happens frequently, the hane-connect is a common example. I do not know of a go term for this, but the CGT term is reversal. Yes, considered as individual plays the capture and recapture each gain 1 2/3 points, but that just takes us back to where we began, in terms of points.Dusk Eagle wrote:Impressive analysis Bill
Black doesn't actually have to respond to this move, as white is not actually threatening to capture the four black stones. However, white can then fill in in sente: This result is -3. So, if black were to play like this, white would have gained -3/2 points with each move. Since this is worse than the result you showed for black, black should have captured
So you are right, Black should take back.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: Frequent Yose Position - Which is the Better Move?
Yes, I think you are right, I wasn't very thorough. {sigh}ndkrempel wrote:Ok, on reflection I don't think black can capture any stones, but seems like black can gain a couple of extra points beyond the obvious ones, so still worth looking into the variations when black plays first and white tenukis.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: Frequent Yose Position - Which is the Better Move?
Many thanks.ndkrempel wrote:Ok, apologies for the multiple posts, but thought I should put some substance to my comments. Here is the best I can see for black playing first:
(The final move is to avoid a seki.)
Note that black got the 7 move in sente here, which he doesn't get in most variations where white has played 5 first.
OK, let's try again. Here I assume AGA territory scoring, which is equivalent to Chinese scoring. (I also include notes on Japanese scoring.) The difference lies in the value of the seki. By AGA scoring White gets two points in the seki and Black gets one point. By Japanese scoring seki is worth 0.
There are some cute plays in there, I think.
Edit:
Hmmm. Where does that "Black to play" come from?
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.