Posts: 4511 Location: Chatteris, UK Liked others: 1589 Was liked: 656
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KGS: topazg
To observers:
As always with these silly Malkovich games, I go to bed thinking about the board position and wondering what's going to happen. The more I think about this, the more I think red may get his idea after all. I don't think Black can jump out:
This corner appears to be really really urgent, and I can only assume that Black will realise this. Which means we can probably expect one of the following:
"a" is normal, and Black will immediately be thinking about moves such as "m", perhaps with a slide first, both creating problems for Black in the corner, and helping to develop the top. "b" is, in my opinion, unwise here. White can probably play "m" almost instantly as it undermines the corner a fair bit more than it would have with "a". Playing high here just increases the urgency in White taking a move he sort of wanted anyway. "c" is a funny move. I'm certain I've seen it a few times in pro games where the group on the edge (White's here) was somewhat unsettled, and Black wanted to address the approach whilst keeping sente. I'm not sure if Black can play this without another stone on top. "d" is also normal. Kicking to make White overconcentrated does make sense. However, if we then lean and attack, we have a more solid right hand group to attack his stone with, so this seems ok too.
As "a", "b", and "d" are all gote, we now really have to decide between a leaning attack and counter pincer on the bottom.
This is really really tricky stuff, but so much fun to try and analyse. I love this sort of Go sooo much!!
To team:
I'm suspicious that Black can't jump out. I think Black needs to handle the top right corner first, or both the slide and the counter pincer start to look fearsome. We may be able to kick off that leaning attack after all! Keep your eyes peeled for opportunities to co-ordinate everything in a big profit making attack.
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KGS: robinz
emeraldemon wrote:
Just want to say I'm enjoying the commentary, keep up the good work! I think everyone approaches the go board a little differently, and the discussion is quite interesting.
Me too - Malkovich games are almost always fun to read through, but ones involving a team even more so, because of the inevitable differences of opinion. I like the Big Brother format too, but I think this one is even more fun
Posts: 1435 Location: California Liked others: 53 Was liked: 171
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KGS: fwiffo
Jordus wrote:
I am not sure white has to respond to your attachment that way... i think white can play B first instead and still be able to live on the side... putting black as a bigger disadvantage than if black played B first...
I dunno, I've always had it drilled into my head that this is horrible for white, regardless if life or death is on the line. Would they really allow this? After we roll over top, we can secure the corner or deal with our side stone.
...and I'm waiting for three suggestions from the ranks.
To teammates:
At least one of their moves has been a bit slack. Ours, IMHO, have not. I think that we have a slightly superior position here - by a tad more than the strength of the first move. They are under pressure, and we must keep up the pressure. In a few moves, something may crack.
To observers:
I'm beginning to wonder if the hoary old attach-and-block joseki might be best here:
Like the previous positions that I considered, it leaves white with sente. But now the R11 stone is clearly misplaced, and white has more cutting points that become relevant if he wishes to attack our R8 stone.
Posts: 1435 Location: California Liked others: 53 Was liked: 171
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KGS: fwiffo
My suggestion:
I'm going to stick with the kick. It's the reason why you normally slide before extending to . Obviously, you can't look at that in isolation without considering the rest of the position, but I still think it's the right move.
My second choice would be to just jump up with the side stone, but I don't think we can actually attack the R5 stone that strongly because it can lean on the corner. Our Q16 stone is more important, and even though it's not in mortal danger, white could make it pretty useless with another move. If I was sure we could keep sente to come back to the kick later, I would address the side first.
The main choice is between a and b, since those are our two weak stones. The question then is a matter of which is weaker. I would really like to pull out b and attack the 53 stone, but what about this:
I'm worried about this double approach. A wouldn't be a problem since we could lean on the two stones and counter attack, but the high double approach is difficult to answer. The normal response of attaching at c doesn't seem so good:
Our corner stones seem pretty useless now, and it will be difficult to attack the high stones. White 18 could even be used to push and cut. Just coming out looks sort of crude, but is it so bad?
This looks like it might acutally not be so bad for us as we will get so much thickness, but the problem is I don't think white has to play this way and might not go in for the 33.:
I'm not really sure what to do with our stones now and I don't see a good way to counterattack. Conclusion: It's tempting to pull out the pincer, but it looks like we can't tolerate a high double approach. The question is wether we can build fast enough to counter white in this situation. What if we respond in the upper right?
If white chooses a, we start haneing up at c and build big. If white plays c we pull out our pincer stone with b. Of all the diagrams so far, and think one is the best for us.
Super conclusion: A high double approach looks really bad for us, and white doesn't seem to be able to do anything bad to our pincer stone since their 5-3 is so weak. Therefore my suggestion:
I don't want to go high because I don't want to have to go back to this group to avoid getting undercut. Ogeima is an option, but it doesn't seem like it's worth it for the amount of aji brings.
_________________ "There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee
Posts: 588 Location: NY Liked others: 124 Was liked: 46
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@Joaz
"White 18 could even be used to push and cut."
I said that!!! :
Although I probably should have posted that as the diagram instead of the other variation
_________________ "There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee
I decided to go with this move.... It attacks the two separate white groups at the same time...
my other choice would have been the corner... but even if left unprotected and white attacks, black is in an ok position... even with a 3-3- invasion...
...noting that there may be multiple ways to develop each stone, but the essential question is still the same: which stone is weaker?
I expanded the question: we have a high stone with an approach on one side, and we have a low stone with approaches on both sides. Which is weaker? When phrased like that, it is a no-brainer. The hoshi stone is much safer because high stones can run more efficiently than low stones, and white must expend a move to prevent its extension down the side before he can try to prevent it from running.
So my initial inclination was to develop the R8 stone with the suggested P8.
Alternatively, it occurred to me that we could try a parallel question: what area of the board is most important? That, again, was an easily answered question: the top side has by far the most open space.
This was not terribly constructive: I got a different answer depending upon which question I asked.
I decided to try to work my way out of that by talking to the stones themselves. I stopped by the top of the board to chat with the Q16 stone, asking him what he wanted: "Well, sir, not that it's my place to say so, but I had a forlorn hope that we might attack. Sorry, sir, can't help it, you know, being that I'm a hoshi stone and all."
The R8 stone was a bit more emphatic: "Well if we aren't going to attack, what did you put me out here for? That's what I'd like to know! I'm out here with me bleedin' arse exposed, attacked on both sides, I am, and you're thinking of abandoning me??"
Talking to the lower left stones was less useful: "Jacks or better, gents...you say there's a war going on? Well, bless me! I thought I heard some commotion...I'll raise you 20...I wish you luck, Cap'n! Let me know if you win."
Their answers reminded me of what the goal has been with the last move: to attack white's isolated stones on the right. So I'm thinking now of exactly what we are trying to do rather than exactly where we are trying to do it.
With that in mind, let's look at the details. The three suggestions are these:
Move 'b', as Jedo has shown, is not in the optimal part of the board, and allows white to pressure our lone hoshi stone and subsequently make territory up top. It is tactically good, but strategically misplaced.
Move 'a', while strategically far-sighted, simply does not pressure white at all. Move 'c' is the most aggressive, cramping white and preparing to attack them.
Both moves 'a' and 'c' end in gote ( 'c' after white's Q14 and black's O16 or O17 ), and the natural play by white would be P4 like this:
Indeed, since Topazg put some of his comments outside of hide tags, we know that Redundant has suggested P4. I've been assuming that we would answer P3. So have other members of our team, and I suspect that Topaz has been assuming it also. The standard joseki looks like this:
Usually this is considered inadequate for black because white gets a very comfortable position by playing R8, while his other two stones run westward between two weak black groups. But there is a black stone already at R8, so this variation should be better for us. I don't know if any of my teammates know this joseki, but I expect that they will find it. Perhaps all of them may want to play P3 in response to P4, but since they have to choose different moves, one will choose P3, and the others will have to find something different. ( I'm counting on Fwiffo's ornery fighting spirit here )
So, in summary, 'a' is strategically good, going in the right direction, but tactically just a tad slack. 'Move 'b' is aggressive, but in the wrong part of the board. Move 'c' is both in the right part of the board and it is aggressive; and I think I can make it work because of an obscure joseki.
For teammates ( an edited version of the hidden part above)
Jedo wrote:
... Another tough choice of priorities. The way I see it:
...noting that there may be multiple ways to develop each stone, but the essential question is still the same: which stone is weaker?
I expanded the question: we have a high stone with an approach on one side, and we have a low stone with approaches on both sides. Which is weaker? When phrased like that, it is a no-brainer. The hoshi stone is much safer because high stones can run more efficiently than low stones, and white must expend a move to prevent its extension down the side before he can try to prevent it from running.
So my initial inclination was to develop the R8 stone with the suggested P8.
Alternatively, it occurred to me that we could try a parallel question: what area of the board is most important? That, again, was an easily answered question: the top side has by far the most open space.
This was not terribly constructive: I got a different answer depending upon which question I asked.
I decided to try to work my way out of that by talking to the stones themselves. I stopped by the top of the board to chat with the Q16 stone, asking him what he wanted: "Well, sir, not that it's my place to say so, but I had a forlorn hope that we might attack. Sorry, sir, can't help it, you know, being that I'm a hoshi stone and all."
The R8 stone was a bit more emphatic: "Well if we aren't going to attack, what did you put me out here for? That's what I'd like to know! I'm out here with me bleedin' arse exposed, attacked on both sides, I am, and you're thinking of abandoning me??"
The Q3 stone was indignant, almost in tears: "I'm not a coward, sir! No matter what everyone else thinks! They all say that if pressed with p4, I'll slink to P3. I'll have you know, sir, I can fight with the best of them: Q4, sir, that's what I'd do!"
Talking to the lower left stones was less useful: "Jacks or better, gents...you say there's a war going on? Well, bless me! I thought I heard some commotion...I'll raise you 20...I wish you luck, Cap'n! Let me know if you win."
Their answers reminded me of what the goal has been with the last move: to attack white's isolated stones on the right. So I'm thinking now of exactly what we are trying to do rather than exactly where we are trying to do it.
With that in mind, let's look at the details. The three suggestions are these:
Move 'b', as Jedo has shown, is not in the optimal part of the board, and allows white to pressure our lone hoshi stone and subsequently make territory up top. It is tactically good, but strategically misplaced.
Move 'a' is strategically good, going in the right direction, but tactically just a tad slack. 'Move 'b' is aggressive, but in the wrong part of the board. Move 'c' is both in the right part of the board and it is aggressive.
This is clearly not optimal, since we only have a two point extension, and we are getting a little overconcentrated. OTOH, we are also getting safer. I believe the continuation might look something like:
Anything off of this looks reasonable for us. To be honest, I didn't expect this move. It tries to make us over-concentrated, but it also makes us stronger near their stone at R8. Instead of the taisha, we can also consider odd ducks like P6, to start to threaten R8. in a loose splitting attack.
_________________ Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
This move seems a bit dangerous, but it's an interesting change of direction, and fast if black follows up on their original move. A continuation is this:
If this all went down, it might not be horrible? However, we would need to sacrifice one of our groups on the right side, and perhaps try to save the other. That, or take tengen and try for ridiculous o-moyo, but perhaps we should not attempt any plan that begins with 'ridiculous'. Black would also have other options in the top right, like a pincer. All in all, I prefer TJ's move, but I'll suggest this move as an alternative. The only other quasi-reasonable alternative I see is something in the bottom right, but tenuki seems too expensive.
_________________ Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
Posts: 588 Location: NY Liked others: 124 Was liked: 46
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black internal
... Hmm I wonder if white will dare to tenuki. That seems compltelty unreasonable since white will get sente anyway and I doubt Topazg would allow it. Once they extend the choice will be for us to jump high or low and it will be a tough choice...
Joaz: Was that comment supposed to be observers only
_________________ "There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee
There's nothing else I'd dare play here. Letting Black hane over the top is bad enough generally, when we can't run down the right side either it's just a burden we can't afford. Let's have some brainstorming for both a Black O16 and O17 now
This is normally just really bad for White. If White can play at the marked Black stone on the right, White may be able to treat R14 lightly (although locally it's still a huge loss). Here, there are just no other options. Remember the 3-3 is still open for playing later, so Black hasn't yet fixed his corner. Interestingly, this is not entirely unreasonable for Black:
As a result, we need to time that 3-3 carefully. Too late, and Black gets a big corner while destabilising White - too early, and we may give Black too easy a time on the right.
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Did red suggest something already?
White internal:
I don't know if O16/O17 will be that different at the moment. Naturally O16 leaves much more room for our invasion/harrasment later on, but that probably isn't urgent. Our top right group is quite stable for now, so we should probably turn our attention to bottom right. I think red's earlier suggestion about leaning against Q3 and then attacking R8 is best after both O16 and O17. Other possibilities are mentioned in my previous message.
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black internal
I don't think it really makes a difference, since if white plays that shoulder hit one of the three of us practically is forced to suggest the push and cut.
_________________ "There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee
All in all, I thank black for their last move. They took gote and let us settle, all for a corner that will either be not that huge, or have aji. Our extension on the right is somewhat narrow, but that just makes us strong.
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topazg
. Obviously, you can't look at that in isolation without considering the rest of the position, but I still think it's the right move.
at the marked Black stone on the right, White may be able to treat R14 lightly (although locally it's still a huge loss). Here, there are just no other options. Remember the 3-3 is still open for playing later, so Black hasn't yet fixed his corner. Interestingly, this is not entirely unreasonable for Black: