Interesting 3-3 invasion sequence

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robinz
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Interesting 3-3 invasion sequence

Post by robinz »

Hi all,

In a KGS game I played tonight, by opponent played a very strange-looking response to my 3-3 invasion, which I'd not come across before (the game as a whole was fairly stupid and not very interesting, but this part of it made me want to ask about it here). I'm talking about the move 4 below. (Both my approach stone and his 6-3 stone were part of living groups, btw, if it makes any difference to the analysis.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ -------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 4 . . . . |
$$ . X . 3 1 . . |
$$ . . . X 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]


I wasn't sure exactly how to handle this. The sequence below is what happened in the game, leading to a ko. It's not clear to me how either of us could have done better by playing different moves at any stage (all of my moves in particular felt pretty much forced) - but then I'm not always that good at reading life and death problems so it's entirely possible that I've missed something:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 ko
$$ -------
$$ . . . 8 9 6 . |
$$ . . X 5 0 7 . |
$$ . X . O O 3 . |
$$ . . . X X 1 . |
$$ . . . . 4 2 . |
$$ . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]


So, my questions are:
1) Is this really the best play by both sides? If not, what other options are available?
2) If it really does lead to a ko, how come I haven't heard of this move before? Provided that the invasion (as here) happens late enough in the game that the thickness black gets from the usual joseki would be of limited use, it seems obviously superior for black to play this way than to let white live unconditionally.

Thanks in advance for any enlightenment :)

(For those interested, in the game I "won" the ko and lived when black responded incorrectly to a local ko threat. But I already had a winning position in the game before I even invaded, so it was probably moot anyway.)
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daniel_the_smith
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Re: Interesting 3-3 invasion sequence

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Black has to be pretty strong on both sides to pull that off.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ -------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . 8 4 7 . . . |
$$ . X 5 3 1 . . |
$$ . . 6 X 2 9 . |
$$ . . . . . 0 . |
$$ . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -------
$$ . . . . . 3 . |
$$ . X X O . . . |
$$ . X O O O 1 . |
$$ . . X X X O . |
$$ . . . . 2 X . |
$$ . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]
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robinz
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Re: Interesting 3-3 invasion sequence

Post by robinz »

Thanks for that, I can see how that works. I presume you mean that, when black *is* strong enough, he can ignore 5 and take away the eyespace in the corner, leaving white to run away to his doom (which, in the position as it was in the game, I'm pretty sure would have been the result - but as I didn't give the wider surroundings I can see what you mean in general :)). I'll try to remember that for the unlikely event that another opponent is crazy enough to try this against me.

And, assuming that running away wouldn't have worked for white, can he do better than I did in the game?
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hiyayang
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Re: Interesting 3-3 invasion sequence

Post by hiyayang »

It kind of depends on the surroundings, but have you considered hane'ing over the two black stones before hane'ing under them as you played in the game?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ -------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 4 . . . . |
$$ . X . 3 1 . . |
$$ . . 5 X 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]


Presumably black would have to either cut or block. The following are two possible sequences:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X . . . . |
$$ . X 1 O O . . |
$$ . . O X X 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X . . . . |
$$ . X . O O . . |
$$ . . O X X 2 . |
$$ . . 1 . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]


In either case, it seems workable for white.
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Re: Interesting 3-3 invasion sequence

Post by robinz »

Ooh, hiyayang's sequence looks rather nice - thanks :)
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Re: Interesting 3-3 invasion sequence

Post by hiyayang »

Actually white may have an even tougher response to black's cut:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X . . . . |
$$ . X 1 O O 4 . |
$$ . . O X X 3 . |
$$ . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]


On second thought, black might have an answer to :w2: :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X . . . . |
$$ . X 1 O O 7 . |
$$ . 4 O X X . . |
$$ . . 3 2 5 . . |
$$ . . . 6 O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]


So, if white is not happy with this result, white still has to hane under to save the two stones in the corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X . . . . |
$$ . X 1 O O . . |
$$ . 5 O X X 4 . |
$$ . . 3 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]


but then white would be better off without the exchange of :w2: and :b5:. Therefore, white should simply play :w4: without :w2:, as in my original diagram.
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