Beginner's questions about a few topics (long post)

[Jujube]

Hi everyone, my name's Ash from UK, this is my first post!

I've been playing go ... well, actually, not for very long at all. I'm pretty good at Chess, play at county level, but Go is something that I've been drawn to like a magnet for the past few months.

I feel generally OK about the opening, I rely on general principles, like ...

play on the 3-4 or star point
extend with two point jumps, first for weak stones, then for shimari, then for other stones
when you have a wall of 2, jump 3
a double wing structure is desirable
star points naturally lead to long extensions
3-4 points lead to kakari or shimari due to their asymmetry
an extension also acting as a pincer is most useful

etc, etc

... However, when I'm done with the post-shimari and extending phase, I just get clobbered. The opponent invades, and I get lost in close combat - either end up killing my own once-alive group (!), or losing a load of territory.

I can't seem to read ahead very well (I'm pretty good calculating variations in chess) ...

And especially frustrating is that the opening is supposed to be the most flexible, difficult stage, but my mind is MUCH MORE DRAWN INTUITIVELY to a specific move in the opening than in the middle game. [In the middle game] I'm just faced with so many points, I don't know where to go or what to do (or where is the 'large' play as Go books like to put it) - I just feel aimless.

So, what would you more experienced infinitely wiser folks suggest I can do to improve?

Also, Xmas is coming up. I just wondered, why are so many Go books out of print these days? I mean, there seemed to be so many great books released in the '80s and '90s, I would have thought that a certain anime show would have made a spurt in new books, or at least reprints of old ones?

I mean, as an example, take a look at this list, some of these books look like absolutely essential reading if one wants to get stronger?

http://senseis.xmp.net/?OutOfPrintGoBooks

ARIGATOU GOZAIMASU!!

[Tofu]

Solve lots and lots of problems to improve your reading. You will soon be doing a lot better in those invasion fights.

[hyperpape]

Problems are the obvious thing. Depending on your level, james davies' attack and defense is a good book for the type of thing you're asking about.

As for out of print go books, there are surely some that would do well in a reprint, but I think that often, the likely buyers have been saturated.

[kirkmc]

Regarding out of print go books - print runs for books like this are small, and the potential pool of buyers is limited, so most don't get reprinted. There are some exceptions - the old Ishi Press series, for example, and Invincible, but most books don't last more than a few years. Some of us book obsessives buy most of the books that are published just because; some day I'll sell some of mine...

[Bill Spight]

From what you say, you should make rapid progress.

My advice: Play against stronger players (taking at least 5 stones) and attack like hell. Go over your games afterward, preferably on the spot with your opponent.

Welcome to the world of go!

Good luck!

[gowan]

Hi everyone, my name's Ash from UK, this is my first post!

I've been playing go ... well, actually, not for very long at all. I'm pretty good at Chess, play at county level, but Go is something that I've been drawn to like a magnet for the past few months.

I feel generally OK about the opening, I rely on general principles, like ...

play on the 3-4 or star point
extend with two point jumps, first for weak stones, then for shimari, then for other stones
when you have a wall of 2, jump 3
a double wing structure is desirable
star points naturally lead to long extensions
3-4 points lead to kakari or shimari due to their asymmetry
an extension also acting as a pincer is most useful

etc, etc

... However, when I'm done with the post-shimari and extending phase, I just get clobbered. The opponent invades, and I get lost in close combat - either end up killing my own once-alive group (!), or losing a load of territory.

I can't seem to read ahead very well (I'm pretty good calculating variations in chess) ...

And especially frustrating is that the opening is supposed to be the most flexible, difficult stage, but my mind is MUCH MORE DRAWN INTUITIVELY to a specific move in the opening than in the middle game. [In the middle game] I'm just faced with so many points, I don't know where to go or what to do (or where is the 'large' play as Go books like to put it) - I just feel aimless.

So, what would you more experienced infinitely wiser folks suggest I can do to improve?

Also, Xmas is coming up. I just wondered, why are so many Go books out of print these days? I mean, there seemed to be so many great books released in the '80s and '90s, I would have thought that a certain anime show would have made a spurt in new books, or at least reprints of old ones?

I mean, as an example, take a look at this list, some of these books look like absolutely essential reading if one wants to get stronger?

http://senseis.xmp.net/?OutOfPrintGoBooks

ARIGATOU GOZAIMASU!!

Regarding why so many books are out of print, the unfortunate truth seems to be that the market is small to begin with and there is a lot of free material available on the internet. Publishers are loath to put out books when they aren't likely to sell more than 1000 copies, and the availability of much free material on the web means that the already small market is even smaller. Almost all the out-of-print books listed on that SL page were originally published before the internet became so popular. Still, new books are coming out and some of the best from the 80's and 90's are still available. There are some fine new books for beginners such as Go: More than a Game, and one of the best go books in English, Invincible is still in print.

[Jujube]

Thanks, everyone

I don't know why I have problems with the middle game. When you started learning, did anyone else find that the opening was kind of OK but the middle game was a bit like being lost at sea? I've heard that there should be a lot less plays possible in the middle game than there are in the opening, but I just can't see them at the moment.

I'm going to get a few books for Xmas like I said, and Attack & Defence, and Tesuji, and In The Beginning from Elementary Go Series are some of them, along with Kageyama's Fundamentals possibly...

Out of interest, has anyone looked at Eio's Middle Game of Go? It seems exactly the book that I'm looking for but I've read that it's a bit advanced and rather a chore to get through.

Completely agree with gowan's point about the internet killing the need of the book... I mean, if they're so expensive to buy second hand these days, but they're all on something like scribd, what's the point? But I find it so much more fun reading a chess book with a real board, for example. The information seems to sink in better if you're doing it in real life instead of just pushing buttons.

Also, it gives me an excuse to buy a board! Since, I don't know anyone who has even heard of the game, never mind play it... Well, there is this one guy, but he moved to New Zealand. So, I'd need some very long fingers.

[mohsart]

I'm not sure, seems to me that recently something like 10 new books gets published a year and maybe 1-5 goes OOP.
I could be wrong, I have no statistics to rely on.

I have always liked the opening part of the game, up til I was about 5 kyu it was my strength too, I could be waaay ahead after the opening and then just fall apart in the middle game.
In particular I remember reading about a game I played against a Finnish player, he wrote something like "After the opening I realized my opponent had four courners and the center. There was only one thing to do, INVAAADE!", I lost that game.
Then I turned to endgame as my main interest, and has managed to get back from the middle game disasters in quite some games.
I am now working on my middle game, but I dislike doing problems so it's a bit slow.

/Mats

[sekoj]

When you started learning, did anyone else find that the opening was kind of OK but the middle game was a bit like being lost at sea?

I remember early on, upto around 2kyu the constant feeling of the opening being over, what now? *confused* just playing some random moves waiting for my opponent to do something major.
It was at that point I started playing some HC games.. attacking a lot, then suddenly I started to get an idea of what to do in middle game.

So

My advice: Play against stronger players (taking at least 5 stones) and attack like hell.

I will just strongly agree with.

Where abouts in the Uk are you then?

[Joaz Banbeck]

Hi, Jujube, welcome to the forum.

The following game is one that I recently reviewed for another beginner who appears to be in a situation similar to yours. The first 10-15 moves look dan level, but then they engage in a series of invasions with varied results. I recommend going through it if you want to learn about invasions.

There are four distinct invasions: one at C4, one at D12, one at M17, and one at O3. Two seem to be good, the other two IMHO, are dubious. There in also one good reduction.

( BTW, if any dan players care to second guess me on my advice, I'd be happy to hear corrections - particularly those on my opinion of the M17 invasion. )

[Perception]

Out of interest, has anyone looked at Eio's Middle Game of Go? It seems exactly the book that I'm looking for but I've read that it's a bit advanced and rather a chore to get through.

If you like to look at a lot (and I do mean a lot) of variation diagrams it isn't a chore to get through. However it is definitely not a good book for beginners. I'm around 2 or 3 kyu and I recently went through it but there was plenty that I didn't understand. I worked through it quickly partly because I knew it was too advanced but also because I enjoyed looking at all the different variations.

The book is definitely for dan level players so for now it's probably best to stick with books like Attack and Defense.

[Toge]

Go might seem like a game where you just use stones to wall off sections of board. It's natural, because beginners don't yet have concepts for different plays. One thing to make the game a whole lot interesting is to notice that killing opponent's stones and later groups can have big difference in game results. No matter how efficiently one plays, it's hard to recover from having a dead group.

How to kill? Can't play two moves in row, so contact fights favor the defender. 1 stone vs. none. 1 vs 1. Then it's opponent's turn and he turns the situation to 2 vs 1. It's better to keep distance and limit your opponent. Kill only what is there for killing.

What is weak and what is strong? Possibilities of movement make for strength. Weakness is the opposite. Possibility to make eyes is another thing that makes strong groups strong. Play away from strong groups - if opponent invades between your own strong groups it's an uphill battle for him.

It might be better to start at smaller board size such as 13x13 in order to get into local fighting sooner. Openings are not as crucial in Go as they are in chess, so there's no real need to memorize.

Check out beginner pages on Sensei's Library:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?PagesForBeginners

[Harleqin]

Play on smaller boards!

As long as you do not know how to handle the stones on a small scale, your feeling for scattering the stones in the fuseki is meaningless.

[Bill Spight]

Some more comments on the SDK game. (OC, this is way above beginner level. ) My usual caveat about no guarantees goes double or triple. Maybe somebody who can actually play this game will comment.

(My comments are marked by asterisks. )

[Dusk Eagle]

Jujube, feel free to post a game in the Game Analysis forum asking for middle-game help. It can often be very hard to talk about the proper way deal with invasions and the like is without being able to give concrete examples. Still, since you seem to find opening principles useful, here's a few principles for the middlegame:

*Don't touch weak stones to attack:
The reason for this is that, when your opponent responds to your last move, the stone you just played suddenly becomes very weak, and you will be forced to try to strengthen it rather than keeping the attack on your opponent's group going. Instead, leave a space or two between weak stones of your opponent and your own stones.

*Touching makes stones stronger:
Similar to the last advice, except it also means that if you have a weak group that is on the run, making contact with your opponent can be a good way of strengthening your own group.

*Attack for profit:
This is a hard one to apply until you've seen it done, but basically, instead of trying to just kill the group you're attacking, try to make a profit elsewhere by attacking a weak group. I think one of the better examples I've seen of this principle is this game between Ishida Yoshio 7p and Chino Tadahiko 7p (B+Resign). It's a very complicated game on the left hand side, but if you focus on moves , , , and , you can see how black builds a large area on the right by attacking white's middle group (also, notice the contact move at to strengthen white's shape shape):


A good Go book will provide much more guidance than this short list, but I hope that this will help you somewhat in your middlegame.

Edit: spelling.