Kobayashi 2 formation thoughts

[Mark356]

I was just browsing SL, and found a page on the Kobayashi 2 formation that made me think a bit. (The page is here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?CornerCoOrdinationStatistics and suggests that Black wins more with the Kobayashi 2 than with the Orthadox fuseki.)

The Kobayashi 2 formation is this:

$$c Kobayashi 2 formation.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . b . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Kobayashi 2 formation.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . b . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black 5 is what's characteristic of the Kobayashi 2. It's interesting, because for the Orthadox fuseki, Black's shimari faces his own corner stone, not his opponent's corner stone. The idea is to build a large-scale structure, so normally White plays a wedge as the third move.

Here, however, the situation is the opposite. Black's shimari is aiming at the lone white stone in the corner. If Black can later approach at "a", his situation will be very good, especially if White has a good reason not to play a pincer.


In fact, since letting Black play at "a" is so good, usually White responds to 3 with a play near "a" or "b" to prevent this. Black might then approach from the other side at "c", or else approach the other stone. But even if Black completely ignores the white response, the initial fighting is over a neutral side, not one that Black is trying to claim.

Also, often when White responds to Black 3 near "b", Black plays on the other side of it, near "a". In this case the influence his shimari contributes in that direction might help him in the ensuing fight.

I think the theory is that if a shimari can be said to affect whatever corner it faces, the best position for it is not the one which threatens to make the largest structure, since that kind of large structure can easily be broken up. The best position for it is facing an enemy stone, forming a mild attack.

Any thoughts on the matter?

[Dusk Eagle]

(The page is here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?CornerCoOrdinationStatistics and suggests that Black wins more with the Kobayashi 2 than with the Orthadox fuseki.)

It's interesting, but I really would like to see some more recent statistics on it. Fuseki knowledge is constantly growing, and what was valid a few years ago may be viewed as inferior now.

I'd like to look more into this fuseki, but I've never actually seen it occur in a game I've studied, and I have to run to class now. However, this explanation just doesn't feel quite right to me:

I think the theory is that if a shimari can be said to affect whatever corner it faces, the best position for it is not the one which threatens to make the largest structure, since that kind of large structure can easily be broken up. The best position for it is facing an enemy stone, forming a mild attack.

Large structures that can be broken up are still fine, as you can profit off of the forcing moves you get when white wedges in between your stone. Also, to say that the shimari "mildly attacks" white's stone is not really true.

I wonder, too, about how this fuseki has changed since 2002 now that this pincer has become more common:

$$c Kobayashi 2 formation.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Kobayashi 2 formation.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As another quick thought before I run off late to class, don't forget about this similar-yet-different opening, which I quite enjoy playing:

$$c Kobayashi 2 formation.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Kobayashi 2 formation.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[Mark356]

That last one used to be my very favorite opening as black-- it's very safe and has good development potential.

I'm not sure if I quite articulated what I think the benefit of this formation might be. It's not that it's a particularly aggressive opening for black. But black does have a very good approach move with this shimari. Also, I think there's something to be said for having a shimari face the rest of the board rather than just your other corner.

Btw, I'm a bit surprised that you haven't seen it in games you've studied. I meant to post some SGFs here anyway.
[sgf-full]http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=531[/sgf-full]
[sgf-full]http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=532[/sgf-full]
[sgf-full]http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=535[/sgf-full]

[Dusk Eagle]

I looked up black's side position from moves 1-5 in eidogo.com's pro game database just now. Looking only at games dated 2000 or later, it appears to be just like you said: by far the most common move seemed to be or 'a'.

$$Bc Kobayashi 2 formation.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a 6 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Kobayashi 2 formation.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a 6 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This seems to suggest that letting black get the approach on the lower left stone is indeed very big, and white will more often than not play to prevent it. In fact, even if was on the 3-4 or 3-3 point, seems to be the most popular reply.

If black black does approach around 'b', it seems perfectly fine for black, but I don't see it being a concern for white either. The game feels pretty close to even to me.

Still, I don't understand exactly what this fuseki has going for it compared to the Orthodox fuseki. The fact that duals as both an extension from white's corner and limits an extension from black's shimari seems slightly unfavorable to me. The low stone also slightly lowers the value of the right side compared to the Orthodox fuseki.

the initial fighting is over a neutral side, not one that Black is trying to claim.

I don't understand how that is an advantage for this fuseki. If anything, I want the fight to be in my strongest area, as it will give me the strongest attack on white and allows white to do the least back to me.

Of course, this is all just my feelings on this fuseki; you shouldn't draw any conclusions based solely on what I say . To me though, I don't like it as much as the more common fuseki, yet it does seem to appear in pro play anyway. It'd be interesting to hear how a pro feels about this fuseki.

[Loons]

A KGS game I just saw transposed onto this Kobayashi 2. Just out of interest.

(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Chinese]SZ[19]KM[0.50]TM[0]OT[3x30 byo-yomi]
PW[AncientGo]PB[kghin]WR[9d]BR[8d]DT[2010-11-12]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[AncientGo [9d\]: hi
kghin [8d\]: hi
]RE[B+Resign]
;B[pd]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[dd]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[pq]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[dp]WL[30]OW[3]C[MrMouse [1d\]: good day
]
;B[fq]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[hq]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[qo]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[kq]WL[30]OW[3]C[notrob: this is the most exciting night of kibitzing
notrob: in months.
Mikki62 [1k\]: night???
Marek [5d\]: nope
TezukaK [-\]: need another 9d
Mikki62 [1k\]: omg
notrob: perfectly valid excuse to miss class
]
;B[cf]BL[30]OB[3]C[notrob: morning
]
;W[fc]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[cn]BL[30]OB[3]C[notrob: fuccccccck sun
]
;W[eq]WL[30]OW[3]C[notrob: is coming.
Kulte [9k\]: lol
TezukaK [-\]: 3:32 am
]
;B[cq]BL[30]OB[3]C[MrMouse [1d\]: night in asia
]
;W[cp]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[bp]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[fp]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[br]BL[30]OB[3]C[RayTomes [1d\]: kghin rank has taken a dive
]
;W[nc]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[qf]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[pb]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[qc]BL[30]OB[3]C[Kayres [2k\]: to go up again
]
;W[ci]WL[30]OW[3]C[antherz [2k\]: really? he seems stronger and stronger
]
;B[cd]BL[30]OB[3]C[RayTomes [1d\]: well a 1/2 stone dine
]
;W[cc]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[bc]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[ce]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[bd]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[de]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[be]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[cb]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[df]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[bg]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[bf]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[bl]WL[30]OW[3]C[RayTomes [1d\]: B should have c9
]
;B[cm]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[ei]WL[30]OW[3]C[k81 [3d\]: white f4 - territory not important - shape important
]
;B[ff]BL[30]OB[3]C[RayTomes [1d\]: terrirory counts at end of game, not shape
]
;W[hd]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[lc]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[od]WL[30]OW[3]C[TezukaK [-\]: 8d is accurate for kghin
k81 [3d\]: yes, but territory comes from good shape
k81 [3d\]: naturally
RayTomes [1d\]: sure
]
;B[of]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[pc]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[qd]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[me]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[le]BL[30]OB[3]C[antherz [2k\]: ok guys, this is go no one understands it
]
;W[lf]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[ke]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[mg]WL[30]OW[3]C[k81 [3d\]: oh, some do understand, a few can even play!
]
;B[md]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[ne]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[kf]BL[30]OB[3]C[hellas [?\]: disbelieve
TezukaK [-\]: i understand it just fine
]
;W[kg]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[jg]BL[30]OB[3]C[antherz [2k\]: so you say
]
;W[kh]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[jh]BL[30]OB[3]C[TezukaK [-\]: yes i just did say that
RayTomes [1d\]: Tezuka, why do you not play ranking games?
Kayres [2k\]: w shape says "i'm attacking"
k81 [3d\]: It's like qed - if you say you understand - you don't
TezukaK [-\]: why do you ask?
]
;W[jf]WL[30]OW[3]C[RayTomes [1d\]: so I get an answer
]
;B[if]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[je]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[ie]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[jd]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[id]BL[30]OB[3]C[Emerson [6k\]: 3 weak groups for black...
TezukaK [-\]: because its the internet
]
;W[ld]WL[30]OW[3]C[RayTomes [1d\]: you can play rated games on internet
Kayres [2k\]: b4 not weak
TezukaK [-\]: or you can just play free
]
;B[hc]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[jc]WL[30]OW[3]C[TezukaK [-\]: and you can even play demos too did you know that ?
]
;B[gc]BL[30]OB[3]C[RayTomes [1d\]: yes, and teaching games
TezukaK [-\]: good then we are on the same page
]
;W[fd]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[gd]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[bb]WL[30]OW[3]C[k81 [3d\]: grumpy guy
RayTomes [1d\]: but the idea of rated games is that it lets people easily know the correct handicap
TezukaK [-\]: why would i want to play a handicap game over the internet
]
;B[cl]BL[30]OB[3]C[Kayres [2k\]: ray are you serious
antherz [2k\]: or an even game
notrob: I suppose this all presupposes you enjoy go
]
;W[eg]WL[30]OW[3]C[antherz [2k\]: for that matter
RayTomes [1d\]: yes I am serious
Kayres [2k\]: ok omg
Mikki62 [1k\]: IoI
]
;B[ef]BL[30]OB[3]C[RayTomes [1d\]: he is a good player, I don't see what internet has to do with it
]
;W[bk]WL[30]OW[3]
;B[jb]BL[30]OB[3]C[hellas [?\]: nothin but an excuse
TezukaK [-\]: its a time to relax no need to be serious over the internet a player is stronger ina free game then they are ina ranked game
]
;W[kb]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[ib]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[nq]WL[30]OW[2]C[TezukaK [-\]: playing ranked will just make you think too much about the game
]
;B[kc]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[kd]WL[30]OW[2]C[RayTomes [1d\]: depends on personality
]
;B[lb]BL[30]OB[3]C[RayTomes [1d\]: small?
TezukaK [-\]: its all the same to me
TezukaK [-\]: yeah that was small
hellas [?\]: if i dont take a game serious i cant play better
TezukaK [-\]: letting white take sente was a bad idea
]
;W[oo]WL[30]OW[2]C[linprogba: cost b 2 times gote
RayTomes [1d\]: usually kghin likes to keep sente
TezukaK [-\]: but take it too seriously and youl make a mistake
]
;B[pn]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[on]WL[30]OW[2]C[TezukaK [-\]: players unconciously take the game too seriously
]
;B[om]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[pm]WL[30]OW[2]C[gav1 [3d\]: your logic is flawed
notrob: my best games are the ones I take seriously but don't care about winning -.-
badaji1 [1k\]: two times gote for B at the top , this cant be good
]
;B[qm]BL[30]OB[3]C[hellas [?\]: hmm maybe true too
]
;W[pl]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[ql]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[pk]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[nm]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[qk]WL[30]OW[2]C[TezukaK [-\]: my best games are the ones i take seriously but that brings us back to the thing its the internet i dont need to waste my time to think over the internet
]
;B[np]BL[30]OB[3]C[antherz [2k\]: where do you play serious games>
]
;W[op]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[oq]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[mp]WL[30]OW[2]C[TezukaK [-\]: in real of course where else is there?
]
;B[oj]BL[30]OB[3]C[antherz [2k\]: doi
hellas [?\]: u could decide to take the internet serious too
]
;W[nl]WL[30]OW[2]C[antherz [2k\]: I agree, it is hard to put the same amount of effort into internet games
TezukaK [-\]: or i can use it as time to relax so when it comes to my real games i dont half to worry about losing just because i got a headeche or because im lingering ona game from here
]
;B[mm]BL[30]OB[3]C[hellas [?\]: yep
Mugwump [-\]: not easy to be serious when your opponents overplays like nuts at 1.5 sec per move
]
;W[no]WL[30]OW[2]C[TezukaK [-\]: if i lost a game by .5 here and went to play my real match
]
;B[ol]BL[30]OB[3]C[TezukaK [-\]: do you know how much of a hit that would take?
]
;W[qp]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[rp]BL[30]OB[3]C[antherz [2k\]: i don't even know what that means
TezukaK [-\]: which part?
]
;W[po]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[qn]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[rq]WL[30]OW[2]C[casimiro [-\]: how much of a hit?
hellas [?\]: dont play while headaches then and yes i can imagine the impact
gruenwald [1d\]: real men double hane
]
;B[qq]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[pp]WL[30]OW[2]C[antherz [2k\]: are you a professional?
]
;B[rk]BL[30]OB[3]C[TezukaK [-\]: its not a matter of a headeche or not hellas if you have a tournament there not going to wait for you
TezukaK [-\]: i dont need to answer that
antherz [2k\]: haha
]
;W[rj]WL[30]OW[2]C[nukenin [?\]: s5
antherz [2k\]: be that way son
]
;B[rl]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[ro]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[qj]BL[30]OB[3]C[TezukaK [-\]: yes i will be that way
mooooo [6k\]: go kghin
hellas [?\]: yep i wouldt play in nei while having tournament
k81 [3d\]: TezukaK strong player but not pro
fgfggg: q3 dead?
]
;W[dr]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[gp]BL[30]OB[3]C[Live [2k\]: nice w
dualraum [-\]: yes
TezukaK [-\]: black is behind now
]
;W[gq]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[fo]BL[30]OB[3]C[RayTomes [1d\]: couldn't B have played t4 before s9 and saved s4?
TezukaK [-\]: giving white sente by doing m18 was a horrible move
]
;W[fr]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[dj]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[di]WL[30]OW[2]C[mooooo [6k\]: an b play s2 and life?
]
;B[cj]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[bj]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[fk]BL[30]OB[3]C[sophtpaw [4k\]: easy win for b?
nukenin [?\]: s2 t4 o2.. ko ?
antherz [2k\]: I am losing sente in my life by staying up this late
]
;W[eo]WL[30]OW[2]C[hellas [?\]: =)
]
;B[ki]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[fj]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[gk]BL[30]OB[3]C[notrob: hmm
RayTomes [1d\]: B obsessed with safe w group in upper right
notrob: b has done well to keep things simple
k81 [3d\]: s2 t4 o2 - b dead
]
;W[go]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[nh]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[li]WL[30]OW[2]
;B[gj]BL[30]OB[3]C[FNO [4d\]: what is G5
RayTomes [1d\]: B is aiming for b12?
chibisai [-\]: anthertz, i am gaining influense by watching this
TezukaK [-\]: the games gonna be close
Kulte [9k\]: b5 work ?
]
;W[gg]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[fe]BL[30]OB[3]C[RayTomes [1d\]: no
Deejay [2d\]: no
notrob: doesnt connect
]
;W[gb]WL[30]OW[1]C[Kulte [9k\]: thx
notrob: throw in.
]
;B[bh]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[ch]WL[30]OW[1]C[RayTomes [1d\]: yes
Kayres [2k\]: connect and die
]
;B[cg]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[bi]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[ag]BL[30]OB[3]C[RayTomes [1d\]: w easy life tho
]
;W[ek]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[el]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[ck]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[dk]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[ej]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[dl]BL[30]OB[3]C[TezukaK [-\]: b7
]
;W[bm]WL[30]OW[1]C[TezukaK [-\]: b6
]
;B[bn]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[gi]WL[30]OW[1]C[TezukaK [-\]: g11
]
;B[hb]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[ga]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[rr]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[sp]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[nr]BL[30]OB[3]C[engelchen [1d\]: finally
]
;W[mr]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[ns]BL[30]OB[3]C[k81 [3d\]: q1 will win
engelchen [1d\]: pff
badooking [4d\]: ko
engelchen [1d\]: s1
]
;W[ps]WL[30]OW[1]C[k81 [3d\]: see
k81 [3d\]: no ko
]
;B[pr]BL[30]OB[3]C[cekalo [4k\]: dead
engelchen [1d\]: q1 mistake
k81 [3d\]: r1
gentil [4d\]: dead
]
;W[pj]WL[30]OW[1]C[badooking [4d\]: dead
gentil [4d\]: basic life and death problem
]
;B[qi]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[pi]WL[30]OW[1]C[gentil [4d\]: 3k level
RayTomes [1d\]: s1 r2
Mikki62 [1k\]: haha
go4blitz [3k\]: thx
]
;B[nj]BL[30]OB[3]C[mooooo [6k\]: s2 s1 ko?
k81 [3d\]: w r1 b ?
engelchen [1d\]: s2 p1
]
;W[qs]WL[30]OW[1]C[just9x9 [-\]: r1 s1 ?
k81 [3d\]: then p1
]
;B[qr]BL[30]OB[3]C[engelchen [1d\]: q1 was just wrong attack
Urumi [4d\]: how can he be 9d???
]
;W[pg]WL[30]OW[1]C[engelchen [1d\]: dont know
Nuko [2k\]: lol
Deejay [2d\]: come on it happens
]
;B[pf]BL[30]OB[3]C[RayTomes [1d\]: he is 9d because he beats all the 8 ds
just9x9 [-\]: normally s1 ko instead of q1 placement afaik?
Urumi [4d\]: yeah
engelchen [1d\]: s1 is standard ko
]
;W[ri]WL[30]OW[1]C[sophtpaw [4k\]: q10 dies in gote?
]
;B[qh]BL[30]OB[3]C[engelchen [1d\]: was
]
;W[ms]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[rs]BL[30]OB[3]C[notrob: hmm
RayTomes [1d\]: nothing
notrob: maybe we just played R1 for
chibisai [-\]: hi smartrobot
notrob: ko threats.
mooooo [6k\]: miai alife
Freedom23 [3d\]: more pros?
Freedom23 [3d\]: u.u
Deejay [2d\]: q1 could have also lead to ko
]
;W[rh]WL[30]OW[1]C[notrob: sente.
engelchen [1d\]: no
Urumi [4d\]: q1 is alive
notrob: free ko threat
sophtpaw [4k\]: w despair ate
Mikki62 [1k\]: who said this is 3k level and its dead?
]
;B[ph]BL[30]OB[3]C[smartrobot [9d\]: hi chibisai
gentil [4d\]: me
chibisai [-\]: ^^
sophtpaw [4k\]: b can choose q12 or r13 - either
cekalo [4k\]: me too
]
;W[rn]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[oi]BL[30]OB[3]C[smartrobot [9d\]: hi gentil
gentil [4d\]: hi smartrobot
Mikki62 [1k\]: hi smartrob
Kayres [2k\]: w lost this
]
;W[kn]WL[30]OW[1]C[smartrobot [9d\]: hi mikki
RayTomes [1d\]: not necissarily
]
;B[fh]BL[30]OB[3]C[Freedom23 [3d\]: hi smartrobot =)
]
;W[fg]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[gh]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[hh]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[hi]BL[30]OB[3]C[sophtpaw [4k\]: omg!
cuby [1k?\]: uhh
cekalo [4k\]: hi smartrobot
Marek [5d\]: live
sophtpaw [4k\]: hi cekalo
RayTomes [1d\]: w should have d13 instead of being fancy before
sophtpaw [4k\]: salut gentil
cekalo [4k\]: how are you
gentil [4d\]: smartrobot, for the trip in china, is there any option to have lessons 7d/7 15 hours a day ?
]
;W[ii]WL[30]OW[1]C[Live [2k\]: e12
BlueSpark [9k\]: hipidemia)
]
;B[hj]BL[30]OB[3]C[gentil [4d\]: just eat and sleep and go
sophtpaw [4k\]: can I come to trip to bahamas?
]
;W[ji]WL[30]OW[1]C[Live [2k\]: nice-
]
;B[hg]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[ih]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[ig]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[kj]WL[30]OW[1]C[RayTomes [1d\]: w alive
hellas [?\]: isnt e12 needed by w?
smartrobot [9d\]: it seems not =), too tense
]
;B[fn]BL[30]OB[3]C[gentil [4d\]: too pity
]
;W[gn]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[gm]BL[30]OB[3]C[Marek [5d\]: yeah
simplet [4d\]: white should do something
Freedom23 [3d\]: ><
]
;W[hm]WL[30]OW[1]C[sophtpaw [4k\]: hi Marek
just9x9 [-\]: where in china is the trip?
Marek [5d\]: hihi
sophtpaw [4k\]: Tibet?
]
;B[en]BL[30]OB[3]C[Kayres [2k\]: beijing
freq [1k\]: e12 dies?
]
;W[gl]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[fm]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[hl]WL[30]OW[1]C[k81 [3d\]: if b f11 then w e12 is sente and w lives - if something else then w takes f12 stones and connected
]
;B[fl]BL[30]OB[3]C[just9x9 [-\]: this summer or soon?
Freedom23 [3d\]: every sumer i believe
engelchen [1d\]: hope they dont teach l&d there ^^
freq [1k\]: ah
bitzi [-\]: it's far up in the mountains, no electricity and only rice for food
]
;W[sr]WL[30]OW[1]C[freq [1k\]: nvrmind
]
;B[os]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[ll]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[fi]BL[30]OB[3]C[bitzi [-\]: ^^
]
;W[eh]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[gi]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[dg]WL[30]OW[1]C[smartrobot [9d\]: beijing
]
;B[ik]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[jl]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[ed]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[ec]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[ee]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[dc]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[ab]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[eb]WL[30]OW[1]C[smartrobot [9d\]: sorry, lag serious here
RayTomes [1d\]: w huge win
just9x9 [-\]: np ty
k81 [3d\]: damn, I read q1 works missed simple t2 for b
]
;B[jk]BL[30]OB[3]C[chibisai [-\]: lag
]
;W[kl]WL[30]OW[1]C[simplet [4d\]: wo qu guo beijing
Freedom23 [3d\]: >_<
]
;B[mc]BL[30]OB[3]C[Talamasca [2k\]: r18 bigger
Kayres [2k\]: se smart as ever
RayTomes [1d\]: how can SE decide that b7 is dead? elementary
]
;W[nb]WL[30]OW[1]C[Mikki62 [1k\]: k81 thats 3k level
Marek [5d\]: o18 was sente
]
;B[qb]BL[30]OB[3]C[engelchen [1d\]: rather 10k
k81 [3d\]: yeah - I'm an inverse sandbagger
]
;W[qa]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[ra]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[pa]WL[30]OW[1]C[Mikki62 [1k\]: IoI
axiaoqi [2k\]: simplet: he shi?
]
;B[rb]BL[30]OB[3]C[simplet [4d\]: da
]
;W[co]WL[30]OW[1]C[k81 [3d\]: problem is - I'm not taking this game seriously
engelchen [1d\]: its the first shape in many beginners books dealing with comb shapes
hellas [?\]: welcome in the net =)
]
;B[gf]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[bo]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[ao]BL[30]OB[3]C[ErgoProxy [6d\]: lol?
Marek [5d\]: b1
]
;W[bs]WL[30]OW[1]C[Freedom23 [3d\]: Huh
freq [1k\]: ^^
Freedom23 [3d\]: does this work?
ErgoProxy [6d\]: c2
just9x9 [-\]: yes, first step is learning to comb yourself before you sit down at the goban
RayTomes [1d\]: no
]
;B[cr]BL[30]OB[3]C[ProoMas [5k\]: seems so
]
;W[cs]WL[30]OW[1]C[k81 [3d\]: i never read beginners books on go
]
;B[ar]BL[30]OB[3]C[Marek [5d\]: yose..
ProoMas [5k\]: a7
badooking [4d\]: b won
]
;W[oe]WL[30]OW[1]C[Marek [5d\]: b5 was big
Kayres [2k\]: b losing big
Mikki62 [1k\]: close
]
;B[ml]BL[30]OB[3]C[Mikki62 [1k\]: ?
RayTomes [1d\]: B won in SE's dreams
]
;W[mk]WL[30]OW[1]C[BlueSpark [9k\]: and who said w gonna lose?
ProoMas [5k\]: I'd say jigo
Coray [6k\]: n10
k81 [3d\]: so we have: b won, b loosing big and close
donGoku [3k\]: r13
]
;B[mj]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[lk]WL[30]OW[1]C[ProoMas [5k\]: k81 dont forget jigo!
]
;B[il]BL[30]OB[3]C[Kayres [2k\]: i'm right
]
;W[im]WL[30]OW[1]C[engelchen [1d\]: anyways it seems needless knowledge to become 9d
RayTomes [1d\]: W +30 or so
k81 [3d\]: ah, sorry!
]
;B[mn]BL[30]OB[3]C[Kayres [2k\]:
]
;W[mo]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[ln]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[lo]WL[30]OW[1]C[badooking [4d\]: RAY?
]
;B[lm]BL[30]OB[3]C[badooking [4d\]: r u?
]
;W[ng]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[og]BL[30]OB[3]C[ProoMas [5k\]: o9
RayTomes [1d\]: w o9 sente
]
;W[km]WL[30]OW[1]C[k81 [3d\]: b8 soo dead
]
;B[nk]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[rm]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[sl]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[pe]WL[30]OW[1]C[Coray [6k\]: o.o
]
;B[qe]BL[30]OB[3]C[Coray [6k\]: is k81 seeing something i'm not seeing?
]
;W[sm]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[ok]BL[30]OB[3]C[Kayres [2k\]: s7 better than o9
]
;W[am]WL[30]OW[1]C[Emerson [6k\]: black by 3 ish is my guesstimate
nukenin [?\]: ~w+3
roguehalo [6k\]: looks alive to me
k81 [3d\]: you don't use SE?
]
;B[an]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[ai]WL[30]OW[1]C[gentil [4d\]: smartrobot 就像黑夜中闪烁的星星
Freedom23 [3d\]: really close game
Freedom23 [3d\]: i think w+around 3.5
]
;B[ma]BL[30]OB[3]C[badooking [4d\]: all of audiences drunk
]
;W[na]WL[30]OW[1]C[RayTomes [1d\]: SE not only can't do life and death, it can't count either
RayTomes [1d\]: ahh chinese rules
Freedom23 [3d\]: oh
Kayres [2k\]: hahaha se so nice
]
;B[ha]BL[30]OB[3]C[Freedom23 [3d\]: chinese rules
robertwmr [4d\]: b win
Kayres [2k\]: oh
RayTomes [1d\]: it stuffs the counting every time
ProoMas [5k\]: noone said that se should know how to count
]
;W[ah]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[bg]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[mb]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[la]BL[30]OB[3]C[robertwmr [4d\]: hi king
ProoMas [5k\]: se "estimates"
Freedom23 [3d\]: hmm
zakatan [4k\]: i don't understand how se is so wrong
RockerLee [1k\]: n12
]
;W[mh]WL[30]OW[1]C[badooking [4d\]: Hi Robert^^
zakatan [4k\]: when there are plenty of bots that play decent go
Freedom23 [3d\]: gentil smartrobot is like a shining star in the night?
Coray [6k\]: technology is wrong to those who think they dont need it ^^
]
;B[mi]BL[30]OB[3]C[zakatan [4k\]: at least enough to do life and death
RayTomes [1d\]: it has stuffed algorhythm for counting Chinese style
sophtpaw [4k\]: hi badooking
]
;W[dn]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[dm]BL[30]OB[3]C[badooking [4d\]: hi sope^^
robertwmr [4d\]: black is a korean little boy?
]
;W[nf]WL[30]OW[1]C[RayTomes [1d\]: Chinese little boy
relaxatul [6k\]: chinese
nukenin [?\]: d6 mistake
]
;B[do]BL[30]OB[3]C[ProoMas [5k\]: chinese
]
;W[ep]WL[30]OW[1]C[Kayres [2k\]: chinese
hellas [?\]: 2,5 points for w i bet
sophtpaw [4k\]: soap? :s
]
;B[jj]BL[30]OB[3]C[Kayres [2k\]: b19
robertwmr [4d\]: oh thanks
]
;W[ba]WL[30]OW[1]C[badooking [4d\]: anyway he is little boy
]
;B[dn]BL[30]OB[3]C[ProoMas [5k\]: he's 13
ProoMas [5k\]: or 12
]
;W[aa]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[ac]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[nd]WL[30]OW[1]C[IWantHam [9k\]: hes a phenom
ProoMas [5k\]: afaik
]
;B[ka]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[ki]WL[30]OW[1]C[ErgoProxy [6d\]: ´w+ 0,5
]
;B[ss]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[sq]WL[30]OW[1]C[Emerson [6k\]: w+1.5 by my count
Freedom23 [3d\]: chinese rules
Live [2k\]: b+1.5..
Kayres [2k\]: b+0.5
]
;B[aq]BL[30]OB[3]C[Freedom23 [3d\]: u.u
robertwmr [4d\]: how can he got so much time play on net??
]
;W[ds]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[dq]BL[30]OB[3]C[Faux [-\]: nice parents?
RayTomes [1d\]: dunno, but he is here a lot
]
;W[]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[ic]BL[30]OB[3]C[CrystalF2 [3k\]: b +0,5
Kayres [2k\]: .5
Marek [5d\]: lol
]
;W[]WL[30]OW[1]C[Kayres [2k\]: wow
]
;B[as]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[]WL[30]OW[1]C[frahju: perahps school at home?
]
;B[nn]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[]WL[30]OW[1]
;B[lj]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[]WL[30]OW[1]C[Freedom23 [3d\]: huh
]
;B[kk]BL[30]OB[3]
;W[]WL[30]OW[1]C[Freedom23 [3d\]: w forgot dame?
RayTomes [1d\]: W silly
]
;B[hk]BL[30]OB[3]C[Freedom23 [3d\]: ...
Faux [-\]: w doesn't know chinese?
Faux [-\]: silly
RayTomes [1d\]: this is chinese counting
rvrey [6k\]: lol chinese rules
Emerson [6k\]: omg
Marek [5d\]: rules... fake win
Kayres [2k\]: hm
RayTomes [1d\]: B made 5 extra points
Coray [6k\]: x.x
Freedom23 [3d\]: D;
Marek [5d\]: fake win
kghin [8d\]: thx
nukenin [?\]: lol?
Freedom23 [3d\]: T_T
Coray [6k\]: dang that sucked haha
ProoMas [5k\]: ^_^
ErgoProxy [6d\]: hahaha
AncientGo [9d\]: thx
simplet [4d\]: black gets extra point
Kayres [2k\]: i didnt get that
Faux [-\]: not fake.
rvrey [6k\]: b was winning by 0,5
RayTomes [1d\]: w does not understand about chinese rules
kostuek [-\]: thats a nice way to win
Kayres [2k\]: yes
Faux [-\]: w should pay more attention to rules.
Marek [5d\]: b was loosing
Deejay [2d\]: w knew about it
ProoMas [5k\]: w was winning by 3.5
Mikki62 [1k\]: close
Kayres [2k\]: chinese rules
mooooo [6k\]: w didnt noticed thats all
hellas [?\]: ugly win this way
Kayres [2k\]: but b+0.5 anyway
robertwmr [4d\]: this game is chinese rule or japan?
sophtpaw [4k\]: i prefer german rules
Kayres [2k\]: chinese
SoloWay [2k\]: it was w+1.5
BlueSpark [9k\]: why to set chinese rules and not folow them?
Madzilla [3d\]: no W+1.5
Kayres [2k\]: no it was not
])

[Chew Terr]

The most recent Go Commentary covers a Sakata Eio game where he plays this opening. The opening isn't discussed much, but it's worth seeing one more example of how it can turn out.

http://www.gocommentary.com/free-videos ... ecial.html

[Magicwand]

kobayashi 2 formation is considered not optimal during the time he played it.
but he was winning with that formation so people started to appreciate it more.

it doesnt really matter what formation you start your fuseki. it really matters during the middle game. specially if you are kyu level.. it doesnt matter what fuseki you play.