The influence is not worth the same amount on every board, but nor does it get steadily bigger on bigger boards. Schilds answered it nicely, and between his and Bill's posts there are good explanations of why that isn't the case. Big boards are funky

flOv, those three pictures do not have easily compared formations. The walls on the 19x19 board (and smaller) have extensions, on the larger board they do not. Even just changing the distance between the walls means they are not the same formation. Naturally, there will be more space for the opponent to play in if you don't make an extension from your wall, or the walls are further apart. In order to only account for change in board size, you either have to keep the formations the same, or first show that the change in formation has no significant effect on the specific relationship we're interested in.

If it illustrates anything about the values of particular moves, it illustrates that the middle star point on a smaller board has a better relationship with its corners than does the middle star point on a larger board.

What it does not illustrate is that the size of the board changes the value one player gets out of a particular formation with respect to the value the other player gets out of it.

I think that all we need in order to do so is (as I've already suggested) take a wall on a smaller board, put the exact same wall on a larger board and then ask if we were to play near the wall, would we (all else being equal) play any closer to or further from it on the larger board than on the smaller board. My feeling is that the answer is no, and that we could conclude that the value gained by one player on one side of the wall with respect to the value gained by the other player on the other side of the wall doesn't change.

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19/02/2011: this grumpy person takes a voluntary holiday from L19.

Here's a question that I think is pertinent to our discussion. Which pair is most similar? Which is the least?

A)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ 19x19
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ 23x23
$$ +-----------------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . , . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

B)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ 19x19
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ 23x23
$$ +-----------------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

C)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ 19x19
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ 13x13
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . , . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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19/02/2011: this grumpy person takes a voluntary holiday from L19.

I think I have already answered that. See my other post



Again, you got your reasoning the wrong way round. On a smaller board, I *can't* play as far from the wall as I want. I *have to* play closer, because there is not enough space. Then the opponent can attack and profit from the wall. On a larger board, I can play farther from the wall, the opponent can attack less severely or not at all, so the return from the wall is less.

Seems like we'll have to agree to disagree.

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19/02/2011: this grumpy person takes a voluntary holiday from L19.

I enjoy going over ones that end within single digit difference. beerslayer said he had one end at 0.5 once! Though he didn't know where the game was. Don't suppose you can search for games with margin of score difference as a criteria on KGS, but it would be fun to see that game.

Was thinking it would also be fun to post the finishing position of one of his close games in this thread but I don't know how you would do it? (know I couldn't do it with Drago because it doesn't recognize 37x37's).

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Where've you been? Zatoichi could slice the board in half, put it back together again and rearrange the position so fast that no-one even knew he'd drawn his sword - and he was blind. ~ John Fairbairn

White wins by 7.5

(courtesy of usagi mentioning gowrite2 in another thread )

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19/02/2011: this grumpy person takes a voluntary holiday from L19.

Where can you play 37x37? I tried to start one on KGS, but it wouldn't let me choose a board size larger than 19x19.

You can type the size into the box.

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19/02/2011: this grumpy person takes a voluntary holiday from L19.

You have to make sure you're not on rated game.