82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

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Aphelion
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82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Aphelion »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 diagram
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , B . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Enjoy the game. Japanese unless you object. I don't mind Chinese either.

Thoughts will come later.
Last edited by Aphelion on Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Numsgil
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Re: Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Numsgil »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Japanese is fine; have a good game :)

Strategy and Thoughts
Hard to screw up too bad on move 2 :)

I've been playing niren-sei (double start points) a lot as black and white. I experimented with double 3-3s and chinese type formations a bit, but I think my strongest skill right now is running battles (after reading through Sector fights (when it comes to that, I'll try to draw some nice diagrams :) )), and niren-sei seem's to be the right opening for that style (well, unless you're feeling adventurous and want to try the Great Wall).

I'm approaching from the weak direction of black's stone. There are some high-concept openings where this is something of a "trap", but meh.
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Re: Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Aphelion »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm3 Move 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I've been playing this rotating komoku almost exclusively for a while now. I like the pincer josekis it generates, and I like the solidity of possible shimaris. Beyond that, I play it mostly because I am familiar with it. I don't like to play "unconventional" moves just for the sake of it, mainly because I feel there is so much even about the most boring moves I don't understand.

I'd characterize my style as being fairly territorial; though I play moyo games as well if I feel the situation warrants. If I have a strength, it would be my intuition with shape and ability to fight when my shapes are stronger than my opponents. Endgame is my downfall.

Based upon what I can tell about my opponent in his games vs Kerby, he is a player who is long on theory but weak in reading and in pruning moves based upon shape. In order for me to win this game, I must exploit my perceived fighting advantage without being suckered into over aggressive moves or local myopia. I hope the format of the forum game will aid me more in that front without disadvantaging me by allowing more time for both sides to read.
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Re: Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Numsgil »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm4 Move 4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Aphelion
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Re: Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Aphelion »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5 Move 5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Making a shimari, denying an ideal approach, playing on largest side, setting up pincer - extension if he approaches bottom - whats not to like?
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Re: Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Marcus »

It will be interesting to see how White plays from here. More and more of my opponents are playing this opening as Black, so it's something I'd like to study a bit more. Most recently, I've been looking at the following common continuation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm6 variation part 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . 3 . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 0 X 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 variation part 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 W S . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 B B W . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . W . . W . b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B B X W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There's a defect at the squared point, involving a ladder. Playing the simple move at b is safer, but thanks to the D16 stone, White can play at a instead, leaving the cut, but enlarging the corner and putting pressure on the black group on the bottom.

EDIT: The punctuational grammar in the above sentence is appalling, I know. Try to ignore it. ;)

It used to be, way back when I was DDK, and even 9k, I would find myself dreading to play against certain Black openings that felt overwhelming (like this one did). However, I've come to enjoy it when my opponent plays such an often-played opening, as I frequently learn a new way to fight against it. :) NO FEAR! :batman:
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Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Numsgil »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm6 Move 6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Strategy and Thoughts
Approaching the bottom right corner would normally be the biggest move, but I don't like that it gives black the opportunity to pincer, and a pincer stone would work too well with his enclosure in the top right. So the wedge seems to be the proper play. It threatens the followup of approaching the bottom right corner sometime in the future, and black can't effectively pincer in that situation.

If black forms a corner enclosure in the bottom right, I can expand along the bottom, and simultaneously extend from my star stone and cramp his corner enclosure (and in fact, both of its wings will have been clipped).
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Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Aphelion »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Move 7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Marcus »

I suppose I'll continue to comment on this game.

For observers:
I'm not sure I like this move. Is it played very often in this situation? MY expectation is something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm6 Possible continuation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I've seen this before, and I kind of like Black here.

EDIT: I like Aph's move, too. It's one of my favourite long extensions these days.
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Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Numsgil »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Move 8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Strategy and Thoughts
Normally it's preferred to wait to approach a wedge stone until you're sure which direction is bigger. I think black's move here is a teeny bit premature for that reason.

I'm not going to respond right away. If black wants the stone, he's going to have to give me moves elsewhere on the board. At the moment I dare see he's a bit overconcentrated on the board on the right side. And even if he gets another move in, I can still potentially run out and potentially attack the bottom pincer stone. It's going to take at least two separate moves to properly contain that stone.

So I guess you could say I'm sort of baiting him. If I can get the other two star point stones on the side, in exchange for giving black essentially the whole right side, I'd be quite happy. If black ignores me and makes a wedge or approach on the top left, it should end in gote and I can then handle my stone on the right.
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Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Aphelion »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Move 8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The idea of the wedge is to have miai extensions on both sides. I played my last move believing it was sente due to this, so logically I must follow up on my idea now that he has ignored.

I was tempted to play on the left side, perhaps approaching bottom left or wedging on the left, but that is inconsistent. For white, establishing a stable position the right is big. My play was sente. He ignored it. Of course I follow up on my threat.
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Numsgil
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Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Numsgil »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Move 10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Strategy and Thoughts
Yep, that would be black saying he really wants the right side. The game's not over by any stretch of the imagination, but I prefer white here. I wouldn't say black is overconcentrated, but he is needlessly "dense" on one side of the board, and fairly low.

And that stone can still run sometime in the future. Running with it right now would be a mistake, though; the influence black would gain would be too massive. But when I have some central strength (maybe in a dozen moves) it will become a problem for black. I can threaten to run and build thickness to attack either black's top or bottom.

As far as the move I made here, it was either this or the top star stone. The top is somewhat interesting for black since he gets a (albeit cramped) double wing from his top right corner. But the left side is interesting for both of my nirensei stones. In terms of direction I'm not sure which is bigger, but I usually prefer keeping as few groups on the board as possible, and inviting a wedge from black would split me in two, which I don't like.

I expect black will invade at the 3-3 next in the lower left corner, since he can do so in sente, and it's reasonable timing since I have both wings taken (though he might hold off if he doesn't want to give me central influence just yet).
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Aphelion
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Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Aphelion »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Move 11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Completely expected. He's probably going to pincer here, in which case I will most likely take the corner.
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Redundant
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Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Redundant »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Move 7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't like this move. After 2, it's too close to a relatively settled white group. The invasion at a starts to be pretty severe.
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Numsgil
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Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Numsgil »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm12 Move 12
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . 1 . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Tactics and Variations
This is what I expect. I build up some nice influence, and I already have a stone on the left side to make it in to a moyo.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 4 . B . 1 . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O 5 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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