I like the ideas behind each and every one of the suggestions this time. Red's lean and attack is finally properly supported by the ability to build a huge position on the right side, but I went against it because of the push and cut joseki variation. In the lean, Black gets to cut and create a fight - if we win and kill something (like the corner), it's a huge huge bonus for White. If we lose something, it's a huge huge bonus for Black. If everyone lives, it's unclear how the outcome will be, and also whether or not our top right group will have become weak. There are lots of weak cut groups, and it's hard to see the wood for the trees for me - red's crosscut variation is just so complicated, and leaves so many weaknesses for both sides - I don't want us to lose on a blunder.
Interestingly, one near joseki variation on that side that side that I thought was possibly playable:
If we can rescue the aji on the bottom, I think this has potential, but again, it's complicated. As a result of all this, I went with Chew's move. It's simple, it's clear, and it doesn't leave White with weaknesses. It's also slack of Black to play on the 3rd line:
I think we have to assume this, so if some thought can be put into how that affects things, and to whether or not we're going to get to play "a" or not, that would be good.
@ TJ: I really like the idea, but the placement I think is going to cause us too many problems:
here is sente, and let's Black have the big attack going on in the lower right, something that feels the most urgent priority to deal with first. I agree it's nice to have the extensions in both directions (normally being good because, even though the opponent can force one of them in sente, they are miai), but here one of the forcing moves Black can play greatly helps Black in the big fight.
Interestingly, my personal choice was none of these, and I'm going to put it down now as it can't be played:
makes miai of "a" and "b" to settle, although "c" could well be better than "a". It gives White the corner in sente, and makes Black's wall hard to use. Sure, we can't really attack that solitary stone now, but the corner cash plus lower edge stability feels like more than adequate compensation.
There's some nasty aji here that we'll have to be very careful with. If I was more sure the press wouldn't get us killed, I'd have taken it, but I do that and die in a blaze of glory too often, so I'm trying something clearer. I'm disappointed no-one suggested the counter pincer, it seemed like an obvious move to me, even if it then got discounted
"a" through to "e" are all moves I'm keeping in mind. If people have much curiosity over any of them (as in, what am I thinking), do ask
If black submits to the press, w can double hane over the two stones. If black pushes the other way in response to the shoulder hit, it will revert to a one space low pincer joseki which is favorable to white because r11 is perfectly placed.
There don't really seem to be too many other options here. If we pull out the pincer stone our corner gets enclosed which isn't really an option. Therefore the only choice is how to jump out. We don't want to jump low because then we will get pressed down easily.
Assuming white just shuts down the pincer stone, we have sente to take some big moves.
_________________ "There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee
I think the most important move right now is to extend out the pincer stone at (a) or (b).... White does not necessarily have the corner on the next move.. besides we already own two corners and can easily invade a third still...Points wise, in the short term view, if we lose that corner it is a few more points lost then if we lose the side, However, in the long run, giving white the side hurts us more because of the huge influence over the center they achieve... So I think we need to prevent that.... at least that is what is going through my mind at the moment...
There don't really seem to be too many other options here. If we pull out the pincer stone our corner gets enclosed which isn't really an option. Therefore the only choice is how to jump out. We don't want to jump low because then we will get pressed down easily...
I couldn't say it any better myself.
@Fwiffo:
Sorry to play without your contribution, but there really was only one move.
@Jordus:
I agree with you that we would like to support the pincer stone. But corners are bigger than sides, so if we are indeed faced with the option of abandoning one or the other, we should take the corner. Taking the side ends up something like this:
True, we can live, but white can press us down so much that he becomes strong, and our pincer stone is caught between two groups that it cannot successfully threaten. It get transformed from a pincer to merely an invasion. If we are going to have our pincer turned into an invasion, it would be better to do it like this:
I still like the cap at 3 for the next move. I debated between this and the shoulder hit, and prefer this. We don't have to seal B in, but any strength we can get here is good.
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Black internal chat:
One of the issues that we are going to have to deal with is whether or not our R8 stone is a pincer or an invader. As white gets stronger on one or possibly both sides of R8, its status will change. So - assuming that play continues on the right for a while - when choosing a move, I recommend doing analysis twice: once considering it as a pincer that is attacking, and a second time considering it as an invasion that was played real early.
Note that one of the differences between an invasion and a pincer is that an invading stone is often part of a sabaki sequence that invades a general area, and any single stone might be sacrificed as long as that general area is invaded. Whereas a pincer stone has to be held or it is a failure.
Glad you asked. I had a look at this before my move suggestion, but I decided it wasn't a threat, so I didn't post about it previously. Obviously, we have a couple of options here. Let's check them out. a:
Here, we go along entirely with what B is pushing for. If we do this, we just focus on getting our group out. While it gives W 4th line strength below, it feels awfully toothpastey. I feel like black won't do this immediately, as it may end up hurting them more than helping
Notably, after 27, black cannot atari us down, or they will lose one of the groups it cuts (via capturing race or ladder). I could be missing something here, but every variation on this seems to give us something.
If we got into this situation, I would suggest 'b'. Even if we die small in the corner, we'll get a ton of thickness, potentially seal W into the right side small, or otherwise come out of this fine. While I'm not sure if Topazg can post much more specifically about problems with this analysis, I would appreciate it, Red and TJ, if ya'all would have a look at these diagrams and let me know if you see a gaping error. Thanks!
_________________ Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
Playing here doesn't work very well. After 4, 5 is pretty much forced, or the right side group gets disemboweled. Also, if black saves his right stone, we won't be comfortable, and we also owe a move around a.
Jedo suggested a move in the corner that I'm happy with, Jordus is pondering jumping, so I'll suggest leaning to get out.
To teammates and observers:
This, BTW, is a good example of what I was referring to in my previous post about invader vs pincer.
A shoulder hit is an attacking move. It is usually played with the assumption that if both players extend, ours will be strong but theirs will be heavy. If the board were more like this, it would work:
But if the situation is getting tight enough that one must 'get out' then a defensive move would have been more approriate, probably an attachment like this:
This post is a bit redundant, since Jedo's suggested move was essential to preserve the corner stone, so I would not have chosen Q10 anyway. But it seems a perfect example of the 'invader vs pincer' issue.
If black submits to the press, w can double hane over the two stones. If black pushes the other way in response to the shoulder hit, it will revert to a one space low pincer joseki which is favorable to white because r11 is perfectly placed.
This assumes that we would be foolish enough to make our group heavy with 15. We would have almost certainly attached to R11 instead.
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