Teamovitch #1

Post by **Jordus** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:24 am

Black Move suggestion

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm17 Move 17 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a b . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Jedo and fwiffo both chose corner moves (a and b) so I guess I will give Joaz something a little different to go with... if we play at :b17:

then we gain a good amount of points... and have the option of either running with the lone black stone or taking the corner depending on whites move... either takes a good amount of points from white if they are successful... not to mention the top side is still open and whites left board position is very open to attack....

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:55 pm

@Jordus:

@Fwiffo:

KGS 4 kyu · Post by **fwiffo** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:55 pm

Post by **Jordus** » Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:23 am

@Joaz

gaius · Post by **gaius** » Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:49 am

My sealed move (hidden of course):

Why not play super-solid? This feels nice, the top right corner becomes pretty huge! If white tries to defend the top with something like 20, I happily sacrifice the one stone by playing 'a' and 'b', and then invade the top left. Even after that, there will still be some endgame aji due to :bc:

! So I think white cannot play this slowly. Problem is, I don't see a particularly convincing alternative for white...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm17 Move 16 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , a . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Also,

I seriously doubt a recent comment by Joaz Banbeck... Locally speaking, why would black be unhappy about this? White is overconcentrated a lot; their initial 5-4 influence has been degraded to a little bit of measly territory at the side. What's more, black can consider :b7:

now. If white doesn't respond, there's still a juicy invasion left at 'a'!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:47 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Move 17 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Comments to follow ...

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:31 pm

First set of comments:

Fortunately, I think C17 is the best move, so I don't have to figure out if Jordus was joking...and so I don't have to tell him that I was. :-?

Basically I have two options, an invasion in the upper left ( C17 or D17 ), and a strong reinforcing move someplace on the lower side ( K3 or L3 ). As it happens, all four possibilities end in gote. ( A play on the lower side clearly is, and to the best of my recollection, there are convenient josekis for white that allow them to end with sente )
So one way to get an idea of which is more important is to ask myself what would be available for the bad guys if we don't play there and leave it for them. Since all four end in gote for us, this is an apples-to-apples comparison.

If we take the top left, and they invade in the bottom middle, it seems to look good for us. If they start too far to the right, they end up with a weak group on the bottom and a loose group on the lower right side, and we get to push between. If they start to the left, we get to strengthen our lower right group - which improves the R8 aji, and we get to attack their weak 2-space extension. Some randomly chosen examples follow:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 7 O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . 2 . 1 . 4 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . 3 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 5 O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . 2 . 1 . . 6 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . 3 . . 1 . 2 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There isn't really anyplace that looks good for them. Adequate perhaps, but we always have compensation.

However, if we take the lower side, they are too strong, and the invasion at C12 no longer works:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 . 1 . . . . c . a . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . b . . X . . . | $$ | . 4 . O . . . . . . . . b . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . ? ? . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

We are the weaker group on the left. Also, the top doesn't hold much for us either: the most we can extend to is 'a', and they have enough center influence that they can reduce with moves like 'b' or block with 'c'.

So, we are going to play in the upper left before they do. Exactly where in the upper left is the subject of a later post.

tj86430 · Post by **tj86430** » Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:42 pm

Some initial thoughts / WIC:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . a . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . b . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . c . d . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a is the most intuitive answer, building an outside wall. b looks like something that would work well with our stone on the left side. Tenuki is one option, in which case we should choose the bottom, something like c or d.

kokomi · Post by **kokomi** » Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:07 pm

this doesn't look like a Dan game for me :lol:

But it's interesting

Redundant · Post by **Redundant** » Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:46 pm

Suggestion

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Move 17 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . 1 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This play prevents black from building the bottom, and induces us to remove aji on the right.

The upper left isn't that important. White doesn't have any good moves against our stone. Also, the top is entirely low, and thus unimportant.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:55 pm

Second set of comments:

We all remember the proverb that says to block the 3-3 invasion so as to create a wall with the best extension:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 X C C . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A similar idea applies here for white. They have an opportunity to build a wall when we invade.

If we invade at the 3-4 point, they can play like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm17 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , . 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . 6 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It is an obscure joseki, but with three suggestions per move, they will find it. It continues like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm17 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O . . 2 . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...or like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm17 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X 2 . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O 1 . 4 . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

... and either way C9 is the perfect extension for them.

But if we invade at the 3-3 point, their natural play ends up being more a wall facing the east, which is not efficient for for them. [ I'm not going to show the joseki because we will probably end up playing it. ]

Another, more abstract way to show it is like this:

If we invade at the 3-4, they end up with power like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------- $${ LN B14 F14 }[/go]

...and their stone is well placed to extend that power.

But if we invade at the 3-3, the only reasonable play is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . C . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------- $${ LN C13 F18 }[/go]

...and they need a stone on the upper side to extend that power. But it isn't there. It is at C9.

tj86430 · Post by **tj86430** » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:25 am

kokomi wrote:this doesn't look like a Dan game for me

Well, it could be because the players suggesting the moves are kyu level. ;-)

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:44 am

Tj and Red:

First, lemme know if you guys prefer to be called something besides TJ and Red. It's the shortening in my head, but I can change to whatever.

Second, do either of you remember the exact joseki for the 3-3 invasion in the top right?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . a . . . . . . . . X . . z . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . b . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . x . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . c . d . . . X y . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'd like to think for a little more time about this move, but I want to add x, y, and z for ya'all's consideration. I couldn't decide if the stability from y was better than the benefit of d, or not. Red, if black takes c after d, what do you recommend? Take 'y', or jump out? But yeah, if you guys remember the ideal for 'z', I'd appreciate it. If not, I'll try to read it out for myself. So far, I like 'a', 'd', 'x', and 'z' most, I think.

tj86430 · Post by **tj86430** » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:07 am

WIC:

Chew Terr wrote:Tj and Red: First, lemme know if you guys prefer to be called something besides TJ and Red. It's the shortening in my head, but I can change to whatever.

Second, do either of you remember the exact joseki for the 3-3 invasion in the top right?

$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . a . . . . . . . . X . . z . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . b . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . x . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . c . d . . . X y . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . a . . . . . . . . X . . z . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . b . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . x . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . c . d . . . X y . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'd like to think for a little more time about this move, but I want to add x, y, and z for ya'all's consideration. I couldn't decide if the stability from y was better than the benefit of d, or not. Red, if black takes c after d, what do you recommend? Take 'y', or jump out? But yeah, if you guys remember the ideal for 'z', I'd appreciate it. If not, I'll try to read it out for myself. So far, I like 'a', 'd', 'x', and 'z' most, I think.

I don't mind being called TJ, those are my initials (I'm often referred to as TJa, since that's how I sign my emails).

Anyhow, I don't remember the joseki starting at z, but even if/when we manage to live there it's a tiny life. Besides, I don't see any hurry in playing there, as it is not very likely that black is going to invest another move to completely secure that corner any time soon.

gaius · Post by **gaius** » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:23 am

My observant ideas:

I think this situation calls for an unusual joseki choice. I think almost any tenuki (such as the one Redundant suggested) would be an overplay, because then an invasion at the left side will become really dangerous for white. But I think the "standard" joseki is no good for white either. White has to take gote connect with :w9:

, after that there is still a cutting point at 'a', black can play a perfect neutralising move with 10, and :wc:

is looking very inefficient.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Mindlessly following joseki - no good $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . 1 . . . . . 0 . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 3 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 4 O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . 6 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . 8 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Thing is, because :bc:

is low, the top side is just not so interesting. Luckily, white has a very nice looking move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 More interesting? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 1 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This builds general influence towards the center rather than towards the top right, which will help out in the fights to come. Although black's corner will become a bit bigger, I think it's more than worth it. Now let's hope one of their "soldiers" will find this move!

Life In 19x19

Teamovitch #1

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