Teamovitch #1

Joaz Banbeck · **#201**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Move 17 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Comments to follow ...

Joaz Banbeck · **#202**

First set of comments:

Fortunately, I think C17 is the best move, so I don't have to figure out if Jordus was joking...and so I don't have to tell him that I was. :-?

Basically I have two options, an invasion in the upper left ( C17 or D17 ), and a strong reinforcing move someplace on the lower side ( K3 or L3 ). As it happens, all four possibilities end in gote. ( A play on the lower side clearly is, and to the best of my recollection, there are convenient josekis for white that allow them to end with sente )
So one way to get an idea of which is more important is to ask myself what would be available for the bad guys if we don't play there and leave it for them. Since all four end in gote for us, this is an apples-to-apples comparison.

If we take the top left, and they invade in the bottom middle, it seems to look good for us. If they start too far to the right, they end up with a weak group on the bottom and a loose group on the lower right side, and we get to push between. If they start to the left, we get to strengthen our lower right group - which improves the R8 aji, and we get to attack their weak 2-space extension. Some randomly chosen examples follow:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 7 O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . 2 . 1 . 4 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . 3 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 5 O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . 2 . 1 . . 6 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . 3 . . 1 . 2 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There isn't really anyplace that looks good for them. Adequate perhaps, but we always have compensation.

However, if we take the lower side, they are too strong, and the invasion at C12 no longer works:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 . 1 . . . . c . a . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . b . . X . . . | $$ | . 4 . O . . . . . . . . b . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . ? ? . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

We are the weaker group on the left. Also, the top doesn't hold much for us either: the most we can extend to is 'a', and they have enough center influence that they can reduce with moves like 'b' or block with 'c'.

So, we are going to play in the upper left before they do. Exactly where in the upper left is the subject of a later post.

tj86430 · **#203**

Some initial thoughts / WIC:

kokomi · **#204**

this doesn't look like a Dan game for me :lol:

But it's interesting

Redundant · **#205**

Suggestion

Joaz Banbeck · **#206**

Second set of comments:

We all remember the proverb that says to block the 3-3 invasion so as to create a wall with the best extension:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 X C C . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A similar idea applies here for white. They have an opportunity to build a wall when we invade.

If we invade at the 3-4 point, they can play like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm17 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , . 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . 6 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It is an obscure joseki, but with three suggestions per move, they will find it. It continues like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm17 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O . . 2 . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...or like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm17 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X 2 . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O 1 . 4 . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

... and either way C9 is the perfect extension for them.

But if we invade at the 3-3 point, their natural play ends up being more a wall facing the east, which is not efficient for for them. [ I'm not going to show the joseki because we will probably end up playing it. ]

Another, more abstract way to show it is like this:

If we invade at the 3-4, they end up with power like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------- $${ LN B14 F14 }[/go]

...and their stone is well placed to extend that power.

But if we invade at the 3-3, the only reasonable play is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . C . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------- $${ LN C13 F18 }[/go]

...and they need a stone on the upper side to extend that power. But it isn't there. It is at C9.

tj86430 · **#207**

kokomi wrote:

this doesn't look like a Dan game for me :lol:

Well, it could be because the players suggesting the moves are kyu level. ;-)

Chew Terr · **#208**

Tj and Red:

tj86430 · **#209**

WIC:

Chew Terr wrote:

Tj and Red: First, lemme know if you guys prefer to be called something besides TJ and Red. It's the shortening in my head, but I can change to whatever.

Second, do either of you remember the exact joseki for the 3-3 invasion in the top right?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . a . . . . . . . . X . . z . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . b . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . x . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . c . d . . . X y . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'd like to think for a little more time about this move, but I want to add x, y, and z for ya'all's consideration. I couldn't decide if the stability from y was better than the benefit of d, or not. Red, if black takes c after d, what do you recommend? Take 'y', or jump out? But yeah, if you guys remember the ideal for 'z', I'd appreciate it. If not, I'll try to read it out for myself. So far, I like 'a', 'd', 'x', and 'z' most, I think.

I don't mind being called TJ, those are my initials (I'm often referred to as TJa, since that's how I sign my emails).

Anyhow, I don't remember the joseki starting at z, but even if/when we manage to live there it's a tiny life. Besides, I don't see any hurry in playing there, as it is not very likely that black is going to invest another move to completely secure that corner any time soon.

gaius · **#210**

My observant ideas:

I think this situation calls for an unusual joseki choice. I think almost any tenuki (such as the one Redundant suggested) would be an overplay, because then an invasion at the left side will become really dangerous for white. But I think the "standard" joseki is no good for white either. White has to take gote connect with :w9:

, after that there is still a cutting point at 'a', black can play a perfect neutralising move with 10, and :wc:

is looking very inefficient.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Mindlessly following joseki - no good $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . 1 . . . . . 0 . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 3 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 4 O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . 6 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . 8 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Thing is, because :bc:

is low, the top side is just not so interesting. Luckily, white has a very nice looking move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 More interesting? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 1 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This builds general influence towards the center rather than towards the top right, which will help out in the fights to come. Although black's corner will become a bit bigger, I think it's more than worth it. Now let's hope one of their "soldiers" will find this move!

fwiffo · **#211**

I'm flying out for Thanksgiving weekend in a couple hours, so my participation will drop off somewhat until I'm back.

Joaz Banbeck · **#212**

tj86430 wrote:

kokomi wrote:

this doesn't look like a Dan game for me :lol:

Well, it could be because the players suggesting the moves are kyu level. ;-)

I don't feel that I have yet been forced to choose an inferior move. As a matter of style, I might have played differently ( I really wanted C12 for our last move! ), but I've never been able to say that neither A, B, or C are as good as D.

topazg · **#213**

kokomi wrote:

this doesn't look like a Dan game for me :lol:

But it's interesting

I echo Joaz's points here - well, mostly anyway, a couple of times I would have chosen a move that wasn't suggested, but really it's a case of style and playing the options given. It's been a lot more restrictive and at the same time a lot more open than I expected, a very strange experience

topazg · **#214**

For observers:

EDIT: Also for observers

And why oh why is no-one considering the kosumi as it is a standard joseki here?

Something exciting and fighty perhaps?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 Move 20 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . B 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 X . 4 5 . 7 . . a . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 , W 6 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . 8 . 0 . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After 30 at "a", White can then descend in the top left as sente against the corner I think, which means we get a very adequate left side:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm30 Move 30 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . X O . O . . 1 . . X . . . . . | $$ | . 3 O , O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm35 Move 35 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X 1 X O . O . . O . . X . . . . . | $$ | . O O 3 O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 6 5 O 4 X . X . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . 8 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . 9 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So, the likelihood is Black protects his central group on :b31:

, we get

in sente against the corner, then get to play in the lower right:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm30 Move 30 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . X O . O . . 1 . . X . . . . . | $$ | . 3 O , O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . 5 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Maybe something like this ?

topazg · **#215**

To observers wondering what's so special about the lower right move?

Not only does it disrupt the lower side, but it also prepares this cut:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm34 Move 34 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . X O . O . . O . . X . . . . . | $$ | . O O , O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . 9 X 3 , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . 1 6 5 4 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Other resistance?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm36 Move 36 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . X O . O . . O . . X . . . . . | $$ | . O O , O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 1 , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . O . 2 3 X 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 4 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm36 Move 36 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . X O . O . . O . . X . . . . . | $$ | . O O , O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 1 , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . O . 2 3 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 7 4 5 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Redundant · **#216**

Chew:

Chew Terr · **#217**

White Move Nomination:

tj86430 · **#218**

My suggestion:

I like Red's suggestion, and Chew's has it's merits too, although I think that we are investing too many moves in the right side.

I feel that we need one suggestion that answers the black invasion in the upper left corner just to give our captain enough variety. I'm now considering the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . d . . . f . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . a . , . . . . e , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . b c O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not sure if any of those is joseki, but I'll try to explain my thoughts behind them:
a) to c) work together with our stone at C9.
a) puts most pressure to the invading stone, and I think they would need to answer it unless they want to sacrifice. I'm not sure if we would get sente, however.
b) is my original thought, it's more conservative than a), but still puts some pressure against the invading stone.
c) is the most conservative, but black can ignore it altogether
d) should be joseki, but it leaves our left side open at the top. Surely we could build an east facing wall, but black can pretty much neutralize it by playing around K17.
e) or f) is the most recent idea that came to me, it really doesn't much by itself, but after that d) would be a strong followup.

I believe I should go with my first instinct, therefore I nominate:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . W . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · **#219**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . 1 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Comments to follow...

tj86430 · **#220**

Topazg: Is the latest hidden part only for observers or also for white team?

Teamovitch #1

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