82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

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Aphelion
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Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Aphelion »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bcm35 Move 35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Numsgil
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Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Numsgil »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36 Move 36
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Strategy and Thoughts
Invasion it is, then (black is inside my moyo, and fairly deep, so even though this sort of shoulder hit is normally reducing, it ends in gote for black, so it's an invasion).

Something like this is bad because it forces black towards a weak white conection, harming my position on the top. And black still has access to the center where I was aiming for moyo.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ --------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . O X
$$ | . . . O . . . . X
$$ | . . . . . X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 4 O . . .
$$ | . . . 3 2 . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 B . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


This is better. I say, "okay, you can reduce me, but I get all the rest." Black still has to make a move to escape after this, so I get sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ {LN H9 F13}
$$ ------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , .
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . B 2 4 . . . .
$$ | . . . O 1 3 . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , .
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O .
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ------------------------[/go]


Something like this is similar. Depending on how lightly black wants to treat stones, I should be able to harden the bottom and/or the side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , .
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . B . 2 . . . .
$$ | . . . O 1 3 . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , .
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O .
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ------------------------[/go]


Unless black pulls out a clever tesuji or is willing to play really lightly, this should end in either sente for me or the death of most of black's invasion stones.

In terms of what I should get based on the size of the initial moyo, and it's openness, I think I'm doing alright.
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Aphelion
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Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Aphelion »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37 Move 37
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37 My plan
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O 2 . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Numsgil »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm38 Move 38
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O 1 . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Trigger
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm38 Move 38
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O 1 . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Strategy and Thoughts
Continuing from before. Normally pushing from behind is bad, but I want to make sure black doesn't have a sente sequence against these stones, so I need to get 6 liberties.
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Aphelion
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Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Aphelion »

I would have kept pushing as black. That trigger feels slack. I wonder, with that trigger, do I still need the D15/C15 exchange? Is cutting that white stone bigger than keeping the corner invasion open? Do I need to reduce the big white moyo, and how deep do I need to go? What is the timing for doing that? Lots of reading + counting needed here.
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Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by CSamurai »

Aphelion wrote:
I would have kept pushing as black. That trigger feels slack. I wonder, with that trigger, do I still need the D15/C15 exchange? Is cutting that white stone bigger than keeping the corner invasion open? Do I need to reduce the big white moyo, and how deep do I need to go? What is the timing for doing that? Lots of reading + counting needed here.


Not for players, not for a while anyway.
In my admittedly 5k kgs opinion, the time for reducing/invading the moyo was at 35..

Black played:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bcm35 Move 35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think this is probably the wrong direction to come at this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bcm35 Move 35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think this suits black much better. It's not too late to play here, but, notice now white has another wall here, making the moyo that much stronger, and more profit will be made.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm38 Move 38
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O 1 . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Doesn't look as great for black now.
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Chew Terr
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Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Chew Terr »

Csamurai and observers:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bcm35 Move 35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . a , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I prefer the shoulder hit or a mid-reduction more. The cap is good if you want thickness ordon't want to have reducing both sides as miai, or if you're scared of getting out. However, the shoulder hit seems better for getting in there. I could be wrong though. Regardless, I think somewhere around 'b' is going to add up to be a bigger reduction, anyways. Also, I think extending from the bottom right is probably bigger than capping at the moment.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by CSamurai »

Chew Terr wrote:Csamurai and observers:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bcm35 Move 35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . a , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I prefer the shoulder hit or a mid-reduction more. The cap is good if you want thickness ordon't want to have reducing both sides as miai, or if you're scared of getting out. However, the shoulder hit seems better for getting in there. I could be wrong though. Regardless, I think somewhere around 'b' is going to add up to be a bigger reduction, anyways. Also, I think extending from the bottom right is probably bigger than capping at the moment.


Still for observers and Chew.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$Bcm35 Move 35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . a , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I actually like C a little better than your B if we're going deep, but anything, 1, A, B, C, all way better than the marked black move at 35, in my opinion.
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Aphelion
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Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Aphelion »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm39 Move 39-41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . B , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm39 Move 39-41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . B , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Later on, 'a' and 'b' should be miai for my purposes.
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Numsgil
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Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Numsgil »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm42 Move 42
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . X , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Counting and Scoring
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm42 Move 42
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | w w w . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . w . . X . . b . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . b . b . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . w . . O . b . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . w . . . . b b b b b b b X . X . . |
$$ | . . w . X X X b b . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . X , . . w w O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O w w w w . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . w O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . w . . . . . |
$$ | w O . . . . . . . . . . w . . b X . . |
$$ | b X O O . . . . . , w w . . . b . b b |
$$ | . X X X O O O w w O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The above are some arbitrary boundaries. Let's think just in terms of what each player is asking for (rounding to nearest multiple of 5 to make the math easier):

Black:
Bottom right: 10
Bottom left: 10
Moyo: 80
Total: 100

White:
Big central moyo-territorial-thing: 90
Komi: 5
Sente: 15
Total: 110

So the score is close (within 10 from my loose counting), so I don't have to try and invade black's moyo if I feel that black's moyo isn't any more hardened than mine.

Of course, I don't really have any side bets. I have to get points from my huge center. The fact that it still has two open borders is concerning.


Tactics and Variations
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . X , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I need this move if I want to keep the boundaries of my moyo. If I allow black to have 1, my moyo on the right is as good as gone.

White might decide to just treat this as a forcing move and leave it alone. I don't have a super compelling follow-up.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . X , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is a capping reduction of black's corner while also starting to close up one of the borders of my moyo. It has some annoying followup plays, but I can't really super threaten the corner, so black might take the opportunity to turn at 'a', as that's definitely the larger play.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ {LN J10 P12}
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . 6 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . X , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . 4 . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is a reduction of black's moyo. Honestly, black's moyo is pretty well defended so trying a full blown invasion would probably be a good idea only if I was desperate. If black tries to turn at 2, I can jump into black's moyo, and most of it turns to dame. Of course, black damages a lot of my moyo, too, but tit-for-tat, so things should stay even.

This is also a good point since if black takes it I get reduced instead, and black grows his moyo.


Strategy and Thoughts
So to put it together, I'm going to try and get my reduction in sente and then defend the center, which may or may not end in sente depending on how black is thinking about that stone.

Black might also go the tit-for-tat route, and then things get really messy, but I don't mind playing that way either.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . X , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Aphelion
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Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Aphelion »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm43 Move 43
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . X , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O B . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Not only is this large, but continued pushing along these lines will result in a ladder breaker for O10.
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Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Numsgil »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm44 Move 44
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . X , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Strategy and Thoughts
Blergh, okay, let's do this. Horrible mutual damage.
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Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Aphelion »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45 Move 45
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . X , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This should be sente at least to destroy all of white's moyo, and I still can come back to cut him somehow.
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Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Numsgil »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46 Move 46
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . O 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . X , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Strategy and Thoughts
The thing with horrible mutual damage is that it's sort of a game of chicken. If I chicken out and try to hold on to territory on the left, black secures too much on the right and the whole thing becomes a lossy line of play.


Tactics and Variations
I'm mildly concerned about this cut, as even if I endanger my right side to escape, I'm still not totally in the clear. So I need a way to defend it and at the same time widen my damage to black's position and/or build up solid thickness.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . 6 O 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . X , . 4 3 2 O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This sort of protects the cut, but I think black can threaten to cut too profitably. He secure's most of his top right, and while my thickness stares down at black's weak group, it has to run through my moyo. If black doesn't die, he gets too much. Essentially I'm building thickness in the wrong direction.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . 9 8 O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 6 X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . 7 O 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . X , . . . 3 O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This works out pretty well. Black can still cut, but I can squeeze him into a dumpling shape while building shape. It's not at all given that my white stones will live once cut off, but it seems playable enough.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . O . 1 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X 7 X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . O 2 6 8 9 . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . X , . . 4 3 O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 2 X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . 3 O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . X , . . X O O 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . 4 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Last, let's see what happens if I just do something honte-ish:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . O 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . X , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Actually this works out well enough, as it protects two cut locations at once. It doesn't gain any profit, but black can't really threaten it in sente either. By being slow looking, it encourages black to allow me to jump even further into the moyo and really destroy some potential to make up for the potential destroyed on the right side for me.


Conclusion
While it's tempting to try and play fast, I think the slow looking "honte" sequence is the best, as it leaves essentially no exploitable weaknesses, and from my strong base I can jump even further into black's moyo. Cue stronger players figuring out if it really is honte or if it's just slow. :)
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Aphelion
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Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Post by Aphelion »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46 Move 46
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . X , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Sucks that he protected the cut, but it essentially means he reduced in gote. My hane on the left is still unanswered, and I feel tempted, but I think now that White has reinforced the position my own two stones are looking rather thin. This pushing to solidfy the right is a good trade for me. I should still get sente to play around F8.
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