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 Post subject: Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]
Post #121 Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:52 am 
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White's plan seems to be based on the assumption that black has the weaker group.

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 Post subject: Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]
Post #122 Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:37 pm 
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[go]$$Bcm67 robinz vs DIV - Move 67; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]
Post #123 Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:29 pm 
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KGS: robinz
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[go]$$Wcm68 robinz vs DIV - Move 68; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O 1 . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Nothing to fear here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc robinz vs DIV - Move 68; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X 2 O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O 1 . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

- if black plays this way, then either the J7 or the H8 stone drops off. (Initial plan was to put it in a trigger, but since black's move actually achieves little I'm no sure he's likely to play it.) Otherwise, I get to play J7 myself. Either way, I do manage to connect out with my eye-stealing stones. He will probably try running to he north or east instead, therefore - but his chances of connecting to friendly stones (or making 2 eyes elsewhere) strike me as minimal. Famous last words, probably - but I feel confident right now, at least :D

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 Post subject: Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]
Post #124 Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:40 am 
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Some more reflections:

I think I was a bit too confident in my comments last night. Black playing at J8, and then cutting at K7 after I play J7, is going to cause me problems. I've done some reading this morning, and think I can come out OK by playing as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc robinz vs DIV - Move 68; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X 9 0 . 7 . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O 8 X 1 O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O 2 3 5 . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . 6 4 . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc robinz vs DIV - Move 68; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . 2 . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X O 1 X . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O O X X O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O O X X . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is a complicated position. I'm safely connected out, and black's stones are cut into two groups. But my own cutting stones are rather weak. It's not really the kind of situation I was hoping for - but at the same time I don't think it's disastrously bad - all will depend on if I can keep those cutting stones alive will preventing black's left-hand group from either connecting out or making 2 eyes. If black goes down this route I might reconsider to see if I have any better moves anywhere along the line.

But I'm prepared to fight my way to victory if the game does become a big dogfight like this :rambo:

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 Post subject: Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]
Post #125 Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:21 pm 
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[go]$$Bcm69 robinz vs DIV - Move 69; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


He can have that, I will try to make gains elsewhere that will strengthen that groups running. I'm sure robinz is posting a lot more thoughts, I wish I had some real thoughts, haha. As I've said, I need to find time to play more so I can get my head on straight in life and in this game. Blehhhhhhhhh.

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 Post subject: Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]
Post #126 Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:12 am 
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[go]$$Wcm70 robinz vs DIV - Move 70; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . 1 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black's tenuki here seems to be saying that he accepts that the E5 group is dead (at least for now), and is consequently trying to expand his territory elsewhere. If we do assume that the group is dead, then a quick (and very rough) count points me on about 110 points and black on perhaps 80, erring slightly on the optimistic side for black. But there are still unknowns as far as the status of my right-hand side group is concerned, as well as my M15 stone and the surrounding area, much of which will probably got o black if he can get L15 in. I think the game might still be pretty close if black can either do that or kill the right-hand group. I think there is plenty of aji around, though, which will make it difficult for black to do either of these cleanly.

Given this, my first priority is to make absolutely sure that the E5 group stays dead, and can't connect to any friendly stones. The secondary priority is to aim towards exploiting the weaknesses in black's outward-facing stones (after his last move, M12 is positively screaming to be played) and/or helping out any of my endangered stones. As always when we're not in some kind of forced tactical sequence, I don't really have any idea what the best move is, but this one seems OK to me - it tries to stop the E5 group running to the right (and possibly connecting), while also looking towards M12 and perhaps providing a (tiny) extra bit of support to the right-hand group. It also makes ineffective the variation I showed on my last post, by breaking back's ladder to capture K8. Plus, playing tengen is always good ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]
Post #127 Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:55 am 
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as others pointed out many moves ago, this white's attack at the black group doesn't work very well. in similar situations i usually think something like "come on, i am alive, why are you trying?", although that doesn't mean correct answering is always trivial.

i would at least say that wE7 (60) seems pretty questionable to me - it is overoptimistic because black group is not as weak as both players believe and such move is usually last move sealing the fate of a group, making it finally eyeless and dead, while in this position black can still escape without too much trouble

bJ4 (63) does no harm in my opinion, as black has no prospects of doing anything by the lower edge. although it also doesn't greatly improve black's position

if nothing better, black could be satisfied with this variation, for example (how to attack now?):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm67 Diagram 1 - move 67
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X 7 . 1 . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X 5 O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O 2 3 . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . 6 4 . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

and even with the situation as it stands now (not sure it is best possible):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Diagram 2 - move 71
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . a . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O 5 . . . b . W . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 2 1 . X X . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O 3 X . O . X . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 4 O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

ah, i would forget - DIV: don't worry too much about having few reasons for your moves. to some degree, it appears to me that in Malkovich games the weakest players have most reasoning behind their moves, while stronger ones are able to play by feeling (this certainly doesn't mean you shouldn't think about the game and shouldn't write long comments, it's just a random observation)

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 Post subject: Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]
Post #128 Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:09 pm 
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[go]$$Bcm71 robinz vs DIV - Move 71; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . 1 . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ok...so, I think I have been playing in ways I might not normally played, scared ways...I like to play bold. I need to do so. This is not really bold, but I want to scare him soon. We'll see how it goes, maybe I am waiting too late. This is a learning experience not a title match, I need to try things, so this move will be here as it is, and then I plan to try to get nuts. To have fun, and to learn.

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 Post subject: Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]
Post #129 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:57 am 
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Rank: KGS 9k
KGS: robinz
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[go]$$Wcm72 robinz vs DIV - Move 72; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, it kind of feels like we're in the endgame already. The most important thing is still that the E5 group stays cut off from friendly stones (and therefore stays dead), but black seems - for the moment at least - to have given up hope of that, and I think I can cope with anything black tries for the moment. (Famous last words, perhaps...)

Initially, I wanted to play something to help my R7 group - N8, perhaps. But then, almost at the last moment before I posted my move, my eye was drawn to the top-left corner. In particular, it was drawn to B13, which is quite enormous yet somehow I had missed it before - big territorially, and also reverse sente (preventing a black monkey jump to A11, which would also make my group on the side feel a bit less comfortable - something I don't want as it gives black something to work with if he wants to squirm with the E5 group). The only problem with B13 now is that, unless I missed something, it's not *quite* sente - black can tenuki, and then if I hane at A14 black can play B19 and looks like he lives. But, I can play there first, and then B13 after black defends. Now it seems clear that A14 from me will kill if black tenukis - although there are a lot of variations and I could well have missed/misread some of them :lol:

I feel a bit stupid for missing these possibilities until now, to be honest. B13 is huge, and I somehow missed it. This move is just a preliminary to it, which I think makes it more effective. (Perhaps black will now play B13, or some other move to get out, himself, and let me play B17. It seems a very high-risk strategy, but perhaps black will feel he needs it. I doubt it, though - I'd be very surprised if he could live that way.)

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 Post subject: Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]
Post #130 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:06 am 
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This is a good move!
robinz wrote:
(...) The most important thing is still that the E5 group stays cut off from friendly stones (and therefore stays dead), but black seems - for the moment at least - to have given up hope of that, and I think I can cope with anything black tries for the moment. (...)

Nonsens. I don't think black can give up the stones at the top left and expect to pull off a win, so whatever happens, he'll have to defend. Then the question is: can white kill the E5 group? In contrast to what robinz seems to believe, it's almost certainly (I think) not dead as it stands yet.

If black plays first, I'm almost certain he can pull off a life or a connection. White has plenty of weaknesses to fiddle around with. If white plays first, I just don't know what should happen. It easily gets very complex, but it will surely require some tesuji skills for black to walk away with a good result. I think that between these players, white has good chances. I think I'll root for him, since killing this kind of group with white used to be my own speciality when I was a bit weaker :twisted: .

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 Post subject: Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]
Post #131 Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:17 pm 
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[go]$$Bcm73 robinz vs DIV - Move 73; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]
Post #132 Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:38 pm 
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Dead
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm73 robinz vs DIV - Move 73; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | 2 . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | 6 X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 5 3 O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]
Post #133 Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:56 am 
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[go]$$Wcm74 robinz vs DIV - Move 74; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


OK, after much vacillation this morning, I'm sticking with the original plan. This move is big, and very definitely sente - black must now play A16 to live. (I should probably put a trigger, as I don't expect DIV to get this wrong - but I want to give myself a bit more time to decide my next move ;-)).

The reason for my indecision this morning is that I thought and read long and hard about whether I could in fact kill by playing A16 myself now. For a while I thought that I could, the following being a nice main line:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc robinz vs DIV - Move 74; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | b O a O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 7 . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | 1 8 X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | 5 X 6 O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 4 2 O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

(at first I mistakenly thought that this was seki, but of course I can play a and b at my leisure to atari the A18 stones and thus kill.)

That's all very nice (and I'm rather embarassed that I'd not bothered to read out any of these sequences until now :oops:). But black doesn't have to just roll over as above, but might play the following crosscut:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc robinz vs DIV - Move 74; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | 1 . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 2 O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

- which I would find harder to deal with than I thought at first. Black's corner group is certainly unable to make 2 eyes, but suddenly my top group doesn't look very safe either - and black's E5 group can get involved in the coming mess, perhaps even managing to connect out. Probably I'm worrying over nothing, but I think I'm ahead in this game, so I'm not going to make things complicated when I have a simple and solid big sente move like B13 available :)

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 Post subject: Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]
Post #134 Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:16 am 
Lives in sente
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7 connects underneath. White has nothing to fear.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc robinz vs DIV - Move 74; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | 1 . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 2 O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . 7 X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]
Post #135 Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:22 pm 
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[go]$$Bcm75 robinz vs DIV - Move 75; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | 1 . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I think that B17 and A14 are miai for life after this play...I certainly hope so.

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 Post subject: Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]
Post #136 Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:05 am 
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KGS: robinz
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[go]$$Wcm76 robinz vs DIV - Move 76; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Trigger:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm76 robinz vs DIV - Move 76; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X . O . . . 3 . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Waste of a ko threat it may be, but A14 is also double sente (well, A13 for black would be sente, rather than A14, but you know what I mean), so I think that means that it needs to be played, now we're basically in the endgame (if the early stages).

As for the followup, I already said that the biggest thing now has to be saving my stones on the right. O8 does this, while also pressuring black's group. I don't think I can keep sente here, but this is the most important still unsettled area of the board, as far as I can see. Saving this group will also give me good endgame follow-ups in the lower-right corner. I'm also going to see what I might be able to do against black's formation on top. (The monkey jump is an option, but I'm more tempted now to try something like J17 or K17, so I'm keeping my options open.)

Of course, in any play that develops towards the lower-left I'm going to have to be careful that the black group there definitely still can't get out. This could well give black a number of sente moves there, but provided I don't slip up and let the group escape then I'm still confident of winning the game.

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 Post subject: Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]
Post #137 Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:50 pm 
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Sorry for the long wait, robinz. Have been busy with work and related stuff. Hope things are going well on your end.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm79 robinz vs DIV - Move 79; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X . O . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I see some good potential reduction with this and I feel he probably has to or will want to respond to this. I don't know how big this is, but I like it after his last play. Also wanted to know if anyone could tell me if this is considered a sake bottle shape, which is apparently a bad shape; I assume this isn't because of my other stones in the area. Anyway, let me know.

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 Post subject: Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]
Post #138 Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:12 am 
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KGS: robinz
No problems with the delay :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm80 robinz vs DIV - Move 80; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X . O . . 1 O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, black ignored my shoulder hit, so I really have to follow up on it, don't I? This isn't a great situation for me, as this whole area of the board now looks like becoming dame, and I'm surely going to finish in gote :sad: But if I let that group die then black secures about 15 points for himself there, so I still think this has to be done.

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 Post subject: Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]
Post #139 Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:30 am 
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DIV:
DIV wrote:
Also wanted to know if anyone could tell me if this is considered a sake bottle shape, which is apparently a bad shape; I assume this isn't because of my other stones in the area. Anyway, let me know.

i always considered sake bottle shape a good shape, at least in terms of defense and safety. and proverb "The sake bottle shape is overconcentrated." you are probably refering to applies more to open position and strategic point of view, while in this corner there are mostly tactics left

anyway, believe your reading more than proverbs (although it is good to double check when they are contradictory)

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 Post subject: Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]
Post #140 Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:46 am 
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[go]$$Bcm81 robinz vs DIV - Move 81; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X . O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . 1 O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I want to create a fight from this side, I imagine he'll hane above. If I hane the stone I am contacting he'll have an atari and I'll perhaps have a way to cut off the stone that is keima to his white stone now. if not I might be able to make life below cutting out a big chunk of his lower area on this side. Too bold? probably. But I only will lose a few stones and if I can realize it's not gonna work before him I can play elsewhere, I think it's worth a shot.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm82 robinz vs DIV - Move 82; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X . O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . 1 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O 5 X O 4 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . 3 2 6 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




This is probably more likely, but is a tiny reduction at least.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm82 robinz vs DIV - Move 82; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X . O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . 2 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . 1 . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm82 robinz vs DIV - Move 82; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X . O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . 1 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . X O 3 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . 5 4 . 2 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not sure exactly what he'll do. or what i'll do. trying not to play hopefully, just trying to play to make gains.

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