spotting the atari and other issues (Mark's study journal)
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Mark356
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spotting the atari and other issues (Mark's study journal)
I'll join the study journal bandwagon too. I have no goals, nor study plans, but I think it will be useful to have a place to jot down all all those little things I notice-- mistakes I made, cool things spotted in a dan game, tsumego I don't like, and all of those little things that come up while playing or studying go. I do have a paper go notebook, but it's too much work to copy whole positions into it. Plus there's the rest of the forums, but I definitely don't think it's worth starting a whole thread for each little thing. Let's see how this works out.
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Mark356
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Re: spotting the atari and other issues (Mark's study journa
A few days ago I was watching a game between some high dans on KGS, I don't remember who. I know I hadn't seen one of them play before. I stumbled on a cloned version of the game that a 2k player (I think?) was holding in the ASR, and she did a mini-review for me.
One point that I thought was interesting was that when a black group in the top left corner was about to die, black tenuki'd and played in the lower left side region. I didn't understand this at all, but she explained that this was still about that dying group: it gives it something to run to. White chased, and Black ran across the bottom and got a chunk of seventh-line territory, leaving White with some cutting points. While they debated over those cutting points, I was sure that they'd forgotten the battle in the upper left, but she explained to me that it was really still all over that same group.
Anyway, I tried to find that again, although not knowing who either of the players were, it was difficult. I guessed it was the game played between OohAah and Malapala on 12/4, which has a similar situation:
Black has a small group in the upper left, and he ignores it and attacks the white in the lower left. But this move really is to strengthen the upper left, because 25 moves later, you can see that it's clearly part of the same group, which has grown from a comfortable little outpost to a huge empire:
The one problem with this is that Black's group in the upper left was never struggling to live, nor does he ever get any seventh-line territory on the bottom. (In fact, Black is not struggling anywhere on this board.) So either I totally misremembered the game, or it was a different game entirely. But different game or not, I thought that move 75 (Black 1 in the first diagram) was really cool. Even if I were to play such a move, I wouldn't have seen the way it joins up with the group on top and completely takes over the side and middle like that. Elmarias said that it's the same point: Black took a global view, rather than a local one, and this let him stage the broadest and most productive attack.
Still, I wish I could track down that first game!
One point that I thought was interesting was that when a black group in the top left corner was about to die, black tenuki'd and played in the lower left side region. I didn't understand this at all, but she explained that this was still about that dying group: it gives it something to run to. White chased, and Black ran across the bottom and got a chunk of seventh-line territory, leaving White with some cutting points. While they debated over those cutting points, I was sure that they'd forgotten the battle in the upper left, but she explained to me that it was really still all over that same group.
Anyway, I tried to find that again, although not knowing who either of the players were, it was difficult. I guessed it was the game played between OohAah and Malapala on 12/4, which has a similar situation:
Black has a small group in the upper left, and he ignores it and attacks the white in the lower left. But this move really is to strengthen the upper left, because 25 moves later, you can see that it's clearly part of the same group, which has grown from a comfortable little outpost to a huge empire:
The one problem with this is that Black's group in the upper left was never struggling to live, nor does he ever get any seventh-line territory on the bottom. (In fact, Black is not struggling anywhere on this board.) So either I totally misremembered the game, or it was a different game entirely. But different game or not, I thought that move 75 (Black 1 in the first diagram) was really cool. Even if I were to play such a move, I wouldn't have seen the way it joins up with the group on top and completely takes over the side and middle like that. Elmarias said that it's the same point: Black took a global view, rather than a local one, and this let him stage the broadest and most productive attack.
Still, I wish I could track down that first game!
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Mark356
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Re: spotting the atari and other issues (Mark's study journa
I have noticed a number of factors that negatively affect my go playing: having recently lost, having recently won to someone weak, having recently eaten a bag of gummi worms. (I never realized how fuzzy my head gets after eating a whole bag of gummi worms until after I did so and tried to play go-- this happened multiple times. Perhaps if I want to get stronger, I should just give up the gummi worms!)
But the biggest thing is being short on sleep. I don't have to feel aching to go to bed for sleep deprivation to be harmful. In fact I played some rather good games in October during the Iron Man tournament on KGS, 1 game every 6 hours, while fearsomely tired. No, the worst is when you don't feel tired yet. That's when my reading ability drops sharply, when I stop being able to see ataris, when I'm more likely to assume that a group has enough space to live, when I'm cheerfully willing to let my opponent burrow into my corners. I almost lose whatever ability I have to take some time and ponder moves. And of course my counting ability, low already, becomes almost nil.
Of course usually this only happens late at night, but I have days like that too.
Usually it takes one or two games, where I suffer ridiculous losses, to make me realize that I'm in no state to play go. I'm pretty sure that I'd rather just not play go at all like that. It's not just my desire to protect my ranking. If you practice doing something badly, you'll just learn how to do it badly. You need the right kind of practice to get better at anything.
The problem is, though, even if I'm tired, I probably still want to play go, or at least watch some games and join in the kibbitz, or maybe review some pro games. And the problem with this is, if my reading isn't so hot, and my positional judgement is suffering, it means I'm going to get a whole lot less out of any game I watch. So often, when I'm reviewing pro games late at night, I'm barely doing more than skimming them. Like, a ko fight will be going on, and I'll barely notice what they're fighting over, or what any of the threats mean. It's more like "Oh, that must be a ko fight."
Again, if it gets to that point, I'm not sure if it's even worth watching games. But on the other hand, I've stayed up until ridiculous hours doing all kinds of things all my life. My favorite sort of book is the sort of tome you can pick up at midnight, hoping to read a few chapters before you go to bed, and finish at 6 in the morning feeling absolutely thrilled. (It's not every book that works this way.) In fact, if I can get to the point where I can carry out a rough score estimate or predict the next move even when I'm so tired I can't see anything, I wonder if it might carry over into my normal games.
For the moment, though, I'll probably continue with the status quo: play games, sometimes stopping to watch other people, until I realize I'm making a lot of really bad moves, and then just keep on watching games until I can't keep my eyes open anymore.
But the biggest thing is being short on sleep. I don't have to feel aching to go to bed for sleep deprivation to be harmful. In fact I played some rather good games in October during the Iron Man tournament on KGS, 1 game every 6 hours, while fearsomely tired. No, the worst is when you don't feel tired yet. That's when my reading ability drops sharply, when I stop being able to see ataris, when I'm more likely to assume that a group has enough space to live, when I'm cheerfully willing to let my opponent burrow into my corners. I almost lose whatever ability I have to take some time and ponder moves. And of course my counting ability, low already, becomes almost nil.
Of course usually this only happens late at night, but I have days like that too.
Usually it takes one or two games, where I suffer ridiculous losses, to make me realize that I'm in no state to play go. I'm pretty sure that I'd rather just not play go at all like that. It's not just my desire to protect my ranking. If you practice doing something badly, you'll just learn how to do it badly. You need the right kind of practice to get better at anything.
The problem is, though, even if I'm tired, I probably still want to play go, or at least watch some games and join in the kibbitz, or maybe review some pro games. And the problem with this is, if my reading isn't so hot, and my positional judgement is suffering, it means I'm going to get a whole lot less out of any game I watch. So often, when I'm reviewing pro games late at night, I'm barely doing more than skimming them. Like, a ko fight will be going on, and I'll barely notice what they're fighting over, or what any of the threats mean. It's more like "Oh, that must be a ko fight."
Again, if it gets to that point, I'm not sure if it's even worth watching games. But on the other hand, I've stayed up until ridiculous hours doing all kinds of things all my life. My favorite sort of book is the sort of tome you can pick up at midnight, hoping to read a few chapters before you go to bed, and finish at 6 in the morning feeling absolutely thrilled. (It's not every book that works this way.) In fact, if I can get to the point where I can carry out a rough score estimate or predict the next move even when I'm so tired I can't see anything, I wonder if it might carry over into my normal games.
For the moment, though, I'll probably continue with the status quo: play games, sometimes stopping to watch other people, until I realize I'm making a lot of really bad moves, and then just keep on watching games until I can't keep my eyes open anymore.
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Mark356
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Re: spotting the atari and other issues (Mark's study journa
I made 2 mistakes worth about 15 points just yesterday.
(From Markjgc vs. Josh2605, 12-25-2010.)
I was sure that my white position in the top left was worth at least 15 points. However, in retrospect, I think I should've played at a as soon as possible. It may be gote, since there's not much white can do to black's position even if black ignores, but it's needed to defend the points.
Here's what black did. First, black exchanged 1 for 2:
Next, he played a throwaway stone:
But due to the push and the sacrafice stone, black can now atari 4 stones:
And when I defend, Black can now monkey-jump in:
After the monkey jump, the position was as follows:
I tenuki'd here, thinking that I'd only lost a few points. But tenuki here was my second mistake, as black was now able to atari at a and then connect at b. This was a mistake worth 5 points.
All in all, my position, which could've been worth some 15 points, was now reduced to only 2 points! I did win the game, but if it had been a bit closer, this could've easily cost me the win.
(From Markjgc vs. Josh2605, 12-25-2010.)
I was sure that my white position in the top left was worth at least 15 points. However, in retrospect, I think I should've played at a as soon as possible. It may be gote, since there's not much white can do to black's position even if black ignores, but it's needed to defend the points.
Here's what black did. First, black exchanged 1 for 2:
Next, he played a throwaway stone:
But due to the push and the sacrafice stone, black can now atari 4 stones:
And when I defend, Black can now monkey-jump in:
After the monkey jump, the position was as follows:
I tenuki'd here, thinking that I'd only lost a few points. But tenuki here was my second mistake, as black was now able to atari at a and then connect at b. This was a mistake worth 5 points.
All in all, my position, which could've been worth some 15 points, was now reduced to only 2 points! I did win the game, but if it had been a bit closer, this could've easily cost me the win.
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illluck
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Re: spotting the atari and other issues (Mark's study journa
While black did play a nice sequence, white had various opportunities to retain quite a bit more than in game (in fact, I think black should have just played the second-line hane without the exchanges).
This is probably enough to stop the subsequent sequence.
If white does not have too many weaknesses, this is ok.
Connect and die.
Edit: Also, the result from the monkey jump suggests that black got too much.
This is probably enough to stop the subsequent sequence.
If white does not have too many weaknesses, this is ok.
Connect and die.
Edit: Also, the result from the monkey jump suggests that black got too much.
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Mark356
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Re: spotting the atari and other issues (Mark's study journa
Oh, very nice!
The thing is, I had no idea what black was trying to do, so I cheerfully went along with his plan until it was too late. I just didn't see how the weaknesses in my position could be exploited like that. But it's so cool-- and somewhat frustrating-- to see how many opportunities I had to foil his plans!
The thing is, I had no idea what black was trying to do, so I cheerfully went along with his plan until it was too late. I just didn't see how the weaknesses in my position could be exploited like that. But it's so cool-- and somewhat frustrating-- to see how many opportunities I had to foil his plans!
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Mark356
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Re: spotting the atari and other issues (Mark's study journa
In a review today, Josh asked me why I'd played a 3-point low pincer. Whether I win or lose, in reviews everyone complains about the 3-point low pincers I favor. "It puts no pressure on me," they say. "Look how easily I can escape." Well, of course you can escape. The point of the 3-point low pincer is not to kill-- it's more responding by playing in the middle of the side. It can act as a long extension from a friendly stone, or as a way of breaking up a potential enemy moyo in the making. So even though the approach stone usually escapes just fine-- tenuki is even OK-- I find this to be well worth it.
The reason I play them, though, is because I like Shusaku games. Everyone who's watched Hikaru has to feel some desire to replay Shusaku games. And when I went through a bunch of them a couple months ago, I found a lot of 3-point low pincers. I thought it was a little odd at first too-- I'm still not used to the older 4-point pincers-- but quickly saw the value in them and decided to apply them to my own games.
Anyway, I decided it was time to revisit and go back to the source. So I started flicking through my Shusaku collection and find a random use of the 3-point pincer-- and there weren't any. I tried about 15 games, and Shusaku used that pincer in only about 2 of them. In one of them the opponent, Ota Yuzo, uses the pincer, and Shusaku doesn't. Shusaku does use 3-point low pincers, but he seems at least as inclined to use 2-point pincers, occasionally 1-point pincers, to respond at the opposite corner (you could sometimes call this a 9-point pincer), or very often to do a positive, non-pincer answer such as the Shusaku kosumi, or a keima or 2-point jump on the same side as the original stone. (There was even one case where he used a high 3-point pincer that also attacked another enemy group.) His most common answer to an approach seemed to be tenuki, actually, especially if he could complete another corner by doing so.
I think it would be really cool to see a database crunching the numbers for the percentage of times Shusaku used each reply with, with links to the games so that I could see the context of each reply. (I suppose this is a case for buying GoGoD?) But in the absence of that, I'll just have to figure it out myself.
Since I'm still really a Shusaku newbie, and have no reason to prefer any of his games over any other, following are a few of his games, selected completely randomly.
The reason I play them, though, is because I like Shusaku games. Everyone who's watched Hikaru has to feel some desire to replay Shusaku games. And when I went through a bunch of them a couple months ago, I found a lot of 3-point low pincers. I thought it was a little odd at first too-- I'm still not used to the older 4-point pincers-- but quickly saw the value in them and decided to apply them to my own games.
Anyway, I decided it was time to revisit and go back to the source. So I started flicking through my Shusaku collection and find a random use of the 3-point pincer-- and there weren't any. I tried about 15 games, and Shusaku used that pincer in only about 2 of them. In one of them the opponent, Ota Yuzo, uses the pincer, and Shusaku doesn't. Shusaku does use 3-point low pincers, but he seems at least as inclined to use 2-point pincers, occasionally 1-point pincers, to respond at the opposite corner (you could sometimes call this a 9-point pincer), or very often to do a positive, non-pincer answer such as the Shusaku kosumi, or a keima or 2-point jump on the same side as the original stone. (There was even one case where he used a high 3-point pincer that also attacked another enemy group.) His most common answer to an approach seemed to be tenuki, actually, especially if he could complete another corner by doing so.
I think it would be really cool to see a database crunching the numbers for the percentage of times Shusaku used each reply with, with links to the games so that I could see the context of each reply. (I suppose this is a case for buying GoGoD?) But in the absence of that, I'll just have to figure it out myself.
Since I'm still really a Shusaku newbie, and have no reason to prefer any of his games over any other, following are a few of his games, selected completely randomly.
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Mark356
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Re: spotting the atari and other issues (Mark's study journa
From Ito Showa v. Shusaku, Oct. 15, 1844. (shusa51 in the YAMGT collection.) Shusaku is black.
Shusaku's next move is indeed the 3-point low pincer at a, but I noticed here that he doesn't play this until after he's already made the top left strong. A is a nice extension from the Shusaku kosumi at the top as well as a 3-point pincer. In fact, some of his opponents played at a as soon as Shusaku played the kosumi for that reason. Note that both black 5 and 7 are tenuki from approaches: Shusaku opted to make a perfect enclosure here even at the cost of tenuki from 2 approaches. (White made a similar decision with move 8.) It's almost like the Shusaku kosumi and the 3-point low pincer are what you've got left after you've abandoned your stone rather than the preferred approaches.
White does have the option of pincering the stone in the lower right, but Black kicks at b and extends to c before he does.
Here is the final board position, with the stones above highlighted:
Shusaku's next move is indeed the 3-point low pincer at a, but I noticed here that he doesn't play this until after he's already made the top left strong. A is a nice extension from the Shusaku kosumi at the top as well as a 3-point pincer. In fact, some of his opponents played at a as soon as Shusaku played the kosumi for that reason. Note that both black 5 and 7 are tenuki from approaches: Shusaku opted to make a perfect enclosure here even at the cost of tenuki from 2 approaches. (White made a similar decision with move 8.) It's almost like the Shusaku kosumi and the 3-point low pincer are what you've got left after you've abandoned your stone rather than the preferred approaches.
White does have the option of pincering the stone in the lower right, but Black kicks at b and extends to c before he does.
Here is the final board position, with the stones above highlighted:
Last edited by Mark356 on Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mark356
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Re: spotting the atari and other issues (Mark's study journa
From Shusaku vs. Ota Yuzo, June 5, 15, and 21, 1853. Shusaku is white. (shusa92 in collection.)
In this fuseki so far, Shusaku doesn't play a single pincer. He does attack at a just a little after this, after Black has played at k, which is both an attack and a 3-point high pincer. But he does not play it as a response to white 5. Up to this point, he completes a shimari and he approaches, but Black is the one that pincers.
In this fuseki so far, Shusaku doesn't play a single pincer. He does attack at a just a little after this, after Black has played at k, which is both an attack and a 3-point high pincer. But he does not play it as a response to white 5. Up to this point, he completes a shimari and he approaches, but Black is the one that pincers.
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Mark356
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Re: spotting the atari and other issues (Mark's study journa
From Honinbo Shuwa v. Shusaku, Jul 13, 1847. Shusaku is black. (shusa59 in collection.)
Once again, Shusaku opts to complete his corners rather than pincer. If this and the previous game are representative, it's almost like he prefers being pincered than to do the pincering. Black does play at a, but not until long, long after this. And white never pincers the top right stone, opting for a keima press at b instead.
Once again, Shusaku opts to complete his corners rather than pincer. If this and the previous game are representative, it's almost like he prefers being pincered than to do the pincering. Black does play at a, but not until long, long after this. And white never pincers the top right stone, opting for a keima press at b instead.
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Mark356
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Re: spotting the atari and other issues (Mark's study journa
One last random one before I show another one where he does pincer. Ota Yuzo vs. Shusaku, Feb. 2, 1853. Shusaku is black. (shusa77)
Note that here, Ota doesn't opt to pincer 9 either. I'd probably opt for something near x, to act as an extension as well as a pincer. But Ota plays more peacefully as well, playing a nearly modern joseki that ends with black extending to j. White later plays k, which is a wedge, not a pincer. These openings look so peaceful now that I'm used to pincering or being pincered immediately!
Note that here, Ota doesn't opt to pincer 9 either. I'd probably opt for something near x, to act as an extension as well as a pincer. But Ota plays more peacefully as well, playing a nearly modern joseki that ends with black extending to j. White later plays k, which is a wedge, not a pincer. These openings look so peaceful now that I'm used to pincering or being pincered immediately!
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Mark356
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Re: spotting the atari and other issues (Mark's study journa
This one's interesting. Sakaguchi Sentoku vs. Shusaku, Nov. 17 and 18, 1850. It's a castle game. Shusaku is black. (shusa65 in collection.)
I haven't posted a point where each of the corners has something because that doesn't happen until much later. Here, Shusaku's third move is a pincer-- in fact, the very one I associate with him. I've actually played something like this fuseki as white many times-- that is, I've played White 4 in response to Black 3 rather than taking a second corner, because if black played there first, he'd have an ideal side formation. (Usually most people playing black then play the contact where white 8 is, which annoys me a lot, because they get the big moyo anyway and sometimes the first play in all 4 corners. But that's another post for another day.) And just as White tries to very quickly break up a possible Black moyo, Black's 3-point pincer is perfectly poised to break up a possible White side. After white extends to 8, Black extends to b, and later in the game, to c: Black C then becomes one of those perfect pincer/extensions.
So here Shusaku made 2 3-point pincers, the first to break up a possible white moyo and to take away a white base, and the second as a pincer/extension after white finished a corner at s. But he made this aggressive play only after White made the more aggressive play of attacking on the fourth move. It's like for Shusaku, the 3-point low pincer is more the power saw that usually gathers dust than the hammer he uses every day.
Here's the final game position, though my version doesn't have the yose played all the way out. It's hard to know what to highlight, so I'll just highlight all of the stones I mentioned above.
I haven't posted a point where each of the corners has something because that doesn't happen until much later. Here, Shusaku's third move is a pincer-- in fact, the very one I associate with him. I've actually played something like this fuseki as white many times-- that is, I've played White 4 in response to Black 3 rather than taking a second corner, because if black played there first, he'd have an ideal side formation. (Usually most people playing black then play the contact where white 8 is, which annoys me a lot, because they get the big moyo anyway and sometimes the first play in all 4 corners. But that's another post for another day.) And just as White tries to very quickly break up a possible Black moyo, Black's 3-point pincer is perfectly poised to break up a possible White side. After white extends to 8, Black extends to b, and later in the game, to c: Black C then becomes one of those perfect pincer/extensions.
So here Shusaku made 2 3-point pincers, the first to break up a possible white moyo and to take away a white base, and the second as a pincer/extension after white finished a corner at s. But he made this aggressive play only after White made the more aggressive play of attacking on the fourth move. It's like for Shusaku, the 3-point low pincer is more the power saw that usually gathers dust than the hammer he uses every day.
Here's the final game position, though my version doesn't have the yose played all the way out. It's hard to know what to highlight, so I'll just highlight all of the stones I mentioned above.
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Mark356
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family feud
I just lost a game because of a family feud early on.
I played a four-point extension early in the game. Normally I don't like extensions that big, but here I thought it was OK because the extension was also an approach, and I strengthened it soon enough. Next, my opponent jumped in, and I thought that I could kill it easily, so I played at a.
The result was the following:
I wasn't entirely dissatisfied with the result, because I got to harass black's upper right corner group. But in retrospect, this was what lost me the game. My original extension is now dead, and black has a massive corner worth about 50 points. Harassing Black's corner group isn't even worth much to me, since they can escape or settle easily. (In fact, in the game, they did both.) Running down the middle of the board like this is one example of a family feud: I may get some benefit from the thickness I get, but I'm hurting my own formation a whole lot by playing it.
Magnus86 pointed out that if I had played a kosumi instead of a keima--b in the top diagram-- the whole situation would never have happened.
Anyway, in my next game, against Magnus, the situation was reversed: Magnus attacked me many times in ways that hurt his own stones. Example the first:
Each stone that Black plays in the corner further hurts his triangled stone. That stone did live by connecting out eventually, but never contained any territory. I think playing like this would be worth it only if you thought that the corner was that much more valuable than the side, and were simply using the aji of the triangled stone to build up the corner in sente. (Although in this case, the corner became white as well.)
Example the second:
I think Black 1 in this diagram was a mistake. Its goal is to capture the triangled stones. However, when black tries to save Black 1, I build up a very nice wall, which provides fuel for a later attack on the black shimari in the lower left. In fact, I would've been perfectly happy throwing away the triangled stones, as long as my wall lives. After this, the entire lower left corner became white.
(I think Black could've made the best of a bad situation by simply playing 5 as an atari to 4 and sacrificing the dango. But even if Black 1 was not a mistake, I think descending to the second line definitely was.)
I think my problem is not that I don't know the concept. I don't know how to recognize situations like that soon enough or how to best deal with them when they arise. How do you prevent yourself from playing stones that hurt your other stones anyway? And is it possible to encourage your opponent to play moves that will strengthen you?
I played a four-point extension early in the game. Normally I don't like extensions that big, but here I thought it was OK because the extension was also an approach, and I strengthened it soon enough. Next, my opponent jumped in, and I thought that I could kill it easily, so I played at a.
The result was the following:
I wasn't entirely dissatisfied with the result, because I got to harass black's upper right corner group. But in retrospect, this was what lost me the game. My original extension is now dead, and black has a massive corner worth about 50 points. Harassing Black's corner group isn't even worth much to me, since they can escape or settle easily. (In fact, in the game, they did both.) Running down the middle of the board like this is one example of a family feud: I may get some benefit from the thickness I get, but I'm hurting my own formation a whole lot by playing it.
Magnus86 pointed out that if I had played a kosumi instead of a keima--b in the top diagram-- the whole situation would never have happened.
Anyway, in my next game, against Magnus, the situation was reversed: Magnus attacked me many times in ways that hurt his own stones. Example the first:
Each stone that Black plays in the corner further hurts his triangled stone. That stone did live by connecting out eventually, but never contained any territory. I think playing like this would be worth it only if you thought that the corner was that much more valuable than the side, and were simply using the aji of the triangled stone to build up the corner in sente. (Although in this case, the corner became white as well.)
Example the second:
I think Black 1 in this diagram was a mistake. Its goal is to capture the triangled stones. However, when black tries to save Black 1, I build up a very nice wall, which provides fuel for a later attack on the black shimari in the lower left. In fact, I would've been perfectly happy throwing away the triangled stones, as long as my wall lives. After this, the entire lower left corner became white.
(I think Black could've made the best of a bad situation by simply playing 5 as an atari to 4 and sacrificing the dango. But even if Black 1 was not a mistake, I think descending to the second line definitely was.)
I think my problem is not that I don't know the concept. I don't know how to recognize situations like that soon enough or how to best deal with them when they arise. How do you prevent yourself from playing stones that hurt your other stones anyway? And is it possible to encourage your opponent to play moves that will strengthen you?
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Mark356
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yose issues
It recently occurred to me that I suck at yose.
Before I go on, I want to list a qualifier. I think it's somewhat ridiculous to say something like "I lost this game in the yose" or "I was ahead until move 93, but you slaughtered me in the endgame." The reason being, everything in the yose comes from positions built up in the opening and midgame. If you lost a lot in the endgame, it's because the positions your build up in the midgame weren't worth as much as you thought. You can't really assume that you were ahead at move 93 unless you've already read all possible incursions into the territory you're trying to claim and know how you would deal at them-- furthermore, that even after being dealt with, that these incursions and reductions would not be enough to make you lose.
That said, it happened twice in the past two days: I played a game and felt confident about the value of my position as of the start of the oyose-- that is, after the life and death of all groups had been settled, I thought my positions were more expansive than my opponent's. And my opponent reduced and cut away and chipped in in both cases, so that even though I lost one of them by 1.5 and won the other by 14.5, I still felt like I lost both of them.
Here is the game I won by 14.5, about 50 moves into the endgame. (markjgc vs wakwa, 12-30-2010.) At this point I thought I had a huge advantage of maybe 30 points:
With the cut in the upper right, I expanded my corner by about 15 points while pressing down on white's top group, and I was confident I could turn my center influence into at least 10 points around a. If I could do that, and get at least some of the yose around the edges (b, c, d, e, f), I was sure I would win by a lot.
Here is the final board position:
Of course there was no territory in the center-- what I was sure was at least 10 points is now only 3. I got the first move around many of the lettered points, but not the second. I was expecting the monkey jump around the top left, but didn't expect to be reduced so much. Between the points of these two diagrams, I felt like I lost a lot.
There are also the super-obvious misreads I sometimes make:
I should have played 2 at a. As it was, White played at b and captured the triangled black stones, which brought the triangled white group to life. Had this been a closer game, I could've easily lost because of this.
I feel like there's some concept that I'm not getting, though-- something I should be looking for when I read out endgame replies, or something I'm just not doing in the endgame that would turn closer games into wins.
Before I go on, I want to list a qualifier. I think it's somewhat ridiculous to say something like "I lost this game in the yose" or "I was ahead until move 93, but you slaughtered me in the endgame." The reason being, everything in the yose comes from positions built up in the opening and midgame. If you lost a lot in the endgame, it's because the positions your build up in the midgame weren't worth as much as you thought. You can't really assume that you were ahead at move 93 unless you've already read all possible incursions into the territory you're trying to claim and know how you would deal at them-- furthermore, that even after being dealt with, that these incursions and reductions would not be enough to make you lose.
That said, it happened twice in the past two days: I played a game and felt confident about the value of my position as of the start of the oyose-- that is, after the life and death of all groups had been settled, I thought my positions were more expansive than my opponent's. And my opponent reduced and cut away and chipped in in both cases, so that even though I lost one of them by 1.5 and won the other by 14.5, I still felt like I lost both of them.
Here is the game I won by 14.5, about 50 moves into the endgame. (markjgc vs wakwa, 12-30-2010.) At this point I thought I had a huge advantage of maybe 30 points:
With the cut in the upper right, I expanded my corner by about 15 points while pressing down on white's top group, and I was confident I could turn my center influence into at least 10 points around a. If I could do that, and get at least some of the yose around the edges (b, c, d, e, f), I was sure I would win by a lot.
Here is the final board position:
Of course there was no territory in the center-- what I was sure was at least 10 points is now only 3. I got the first move around many of the lettered points, but not the second. I was expecting the monkey jump around the top left, but didn't expect to be reduced so much. Between the points of these two diagrams, I felt like I lost a lot.
There are also the super-obvious misreads I sometimes make:
I should have played 2 at a. As it was, White played at b and captured the triangled black stones, which brought the triangled white group to life. Had this been a closer game, I could've easily lost because of this.
I feel like there's some concept that I'm not getting, though-- something I should be looking for when I read out endgame replies, or something I'm just not doing in the endgame that would turn closer games into wins.
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Mark356
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Re: spotting the atari and other issues (Mark's study journa
I think a lot of the family feud issues in my games are self-caused-- that is, they were avoidable, but I wanted to play a cut or descent or something and just ended up hurting myself.
I was black in this game against GuChokiPa. RobertT reviewed for me and explained the following. This whole nasty situation in the right came about because I jumped three spaces, not two:
Of course I should have followed up by simply using the linking tesuji, which starts with a play at a. Given that I played 5 at b instead, of course I was going to have problems. So White connected instead, and soon I had this mess:
After this, it's clear that my corner is going to have problems. (It lived, but very small and cut off, and later in the game, the cut-off middle group had severe health problems too.)
But even given that I jumped three spaces rather than two, and even given that I didn't play the linking tesuji, there are still a number of places I could've played that would've helped my stones rather than hurting them.
Here are the points that RobertT suggested I play at instead:
Any of these, even this late in the game, would have helped by group, instead of pushing white into my already-weakened corner.
I did a similar thing in my ASR League game against TheDuke:
This sort of hane and then connect can be a very big endgame move when it's into enemy territory. But in this case, there were more of my stones beyond the enemy stones. According to TheDuke, I was basically just pushing him into my own corner, and I had to fix in gote. If I wanted to play an endgame move there, he suggested that I play simply at a. Otherwise, there are plenty of other very big endgame moves, such as b.
I played another one of these cuts that ended up hurting my own group in my ASR game against TheJurist. The following exchange happened fairly early in the game:
I played at 1 to ensure life for my wall and to help it break into the center, as well as to harass White's small group. White responded by jumping out. I knew if I played at k, a and bwould be miai, and I'd be able to make at least one cut. The following disaster is the result:
After finishing the cut, I had to play at 1 in order to keep White from cutting in and making the whole project meaningless. I had secured an additional 10 points or so-- in fact, it was a similar cut and resultant expansion of territory that helped me win against Wakwa in the game earlier in this threat. But in this case, this cut is a very bad idea. As soon as I played 1 for safety, White played 2. I had given White a very strong wall which now was in the perfect position to harass my other group at the top. Later in the game, that second group died, and I resigned. TheJurist suggested that rather than cutting, I should have simply tenuki'd-- there were still many other big points on the board. There were certainly points that I could play that wouldn't hurt my position so much!
I was black in this game against GuChokiPa. RobertT reviewed for me and explained the following. This whole nasty situation in the right came about because I jumped three spaces, not two:
Of course I should have followed up by simply using the linking tesuji, which starts with a play at a. Given that I played 5 at b instead, of course I was going to have problems. So White connected instead, and soon I had this mess:
After this, it's clear that my corner is going to have problems. (It lived, but very small and cut off, and later in the game, the cut-off middle group had severe health problems too.)
But even given that I jumped three spaces rather than two, and even given that I didn't play the linking tesuji, there are still a number of places I could've played that would've helped my stones rather than hurting them.
Here are the points that RobertT suggested I play at instead:
Any of these, even this late in the game, would have helped by group, instead of pushing white into my already-weakened corner.
I did a similar thing in my ASR League game against TheDuke:
This sort of hane and then connect can be a very big endgame move when it's into enemy territory. But in this case, there were more of my stones beyond the enemy stones. According to TheDuke, I was basically just pushing him into my own corner, and I had to fix in gote. If I wanted to play an endgame move there, he suggested that I play simply at a. Otherwise, there are plenty of other very big endgame moves, such as b.
I played another one of these cuts that ended up hurting my own group in my ASR game against TheJurist. The following exchange happened fairly early in the game:
I played at 1 to ensure life for my wall and to help it break into the center, as well as to harass White's small group. White responded by jumping out. I knew if I played at k, a and bwould be miai, and I'd be able to make at least one cut. The following disaster is the result:
After finishing the cut, I had to play at 1 in order to keep White from cutting in and making the whole project meaningless. I had secured an additional 10 points or so-- in fact, it was a similar cut and resultant expansion of territory that helped me win against Wakwa in the game earlier in this threat. But in this case, this cut is a very bad idea. As soon as I played 1 for safety, White played 2. I had given White a very strong wall which now was in the perfect position to harass my other group at the top. Later in the game, that second group died, and I resigned. TheJurist suggested that rather than cutting, I should have simply tenuki'd-- there were still many other big points on the board. There were certainly points that I could play that wouldn't hurt my position so much!
Last edited by Mark356 on Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:02 am, edited 2 times in total.