27. topazg (1d) vs. Numsgil (8k)

Numsgil · Post by **Numsgil** » Sat May 01, 2010 12:25 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 Move 13 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . O X X X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Strategy and Thoughts

Tactics and Variations

'a' and 'b' were the two moves I was considering. They seem to revert to similar positions, so I'm not sure which one is better. 'b' seems to lead more directly to the position I had read out earlier.

The clamp at 'c' ends similar to the last time I considered the clamp.

'd' Just leads to strengthening both white groups without any clear gain in position or territory.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 Move 13 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . d O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , c O X X X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b O O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Anyway, here's how I think it'll play out. Not at all great for black, but maybe the best I should expect? I get the full corner and a tiny window to the center.

Maybe I can read out something better as we get further along.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 O . O 0 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . 9 . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , 4 O X X X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 O O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

unkx80 · Post by **unkx80** » Sun May 02, 2010 9:17 am

topazg wrote:
$$Wcm10 Move 10 rejected variation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . a 1 B X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 O . X b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Move 10 rejected variation $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . a 1 B X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 O . X b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It's nice to seal Black in a bit, but the cut at "a" has most definitely not been fixed, and my "b" variation is nowhere near so nice. Sealing in is not as good as leaving him without two eyes.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm10 Move 10 rejected variation $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . c 1 B X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . d 3 2 O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a 4 b . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A small nitpick: Ignoring the huge reverse komi, it is normally better to play :w14:

here without making the exchange of a and b. Played this way, black won't cut at c. Also, if black decides to crawl along at a, then white would be very happy to play at d.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Sun May 02, 2010 2:45 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . O X X X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Strategy and Thoughts

Well, that's interesting, I wonder what Black's trying. Hane on top at "a" makes plenty of sense, even though it's yucky pushing from behind on the fourth line, it would at least get Black out. However, locally, it just doesn't work. I figure Black's got "a", "b" and "c" as his options now, and the whole purpose of White extending before haneing was to ensure that "b" failed on liberties:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , c O X X X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Tactics and Variations

A

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Moves 14-17 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , a . . . . , 3 O X X X , . . . | $$ | . . . . a . . . . . 1 X O O . X d . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This makes basic and simple sense for Black, and I haven't decided which of "a" to "e" looks best, but those are the sorts of areas I'm looking at for move 18.

B

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Moves 14-18 Om nom nom $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . O X X X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O O 4 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 5 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

C

If Black thinks he can play this way, everything seems very tearful to me. He risks losing the whole corner if I can cleverly secure the bad aji on the right. I suppose he could envisage this being a clever way of getting "a" even better if I capture when I get atari-d, letting him set up a ko, but why would I do that?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 Moves 14-21 Possibly epic om nom nom $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . 8 2 O X X X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 1 X O O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 5 7 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm22 Moves 22-30 Possibly epic om nom nom $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . X X O X X X , 1 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . O O . X 2 4 7 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . 5 6 . . 8 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Numsgil · Post by **Numsgil** » Mon May 03, 2010 10:50 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm15 Move 15 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . O X X X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Mon May 03, 2010 11:25 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Move 16 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , 1 O X X X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Strategy and Thoughts

Fundamental Principles

This is a reasonably good example of the 1-2-3 principle. If Black wants to hane, but is fearful of the cut, so he cuts first to make sure the hane is an atari, the hane first will work fine, because his response to White's cut is to cut back:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 Move 13-17 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , 4 O X X X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

More often than not, playing the final cut first is at best aji-keshi, and it removes the possibilities that your opponent may get an attack of aggression and not notice the counter-attack possibilities that you left. The 1-2-3 principle link above explains this very well.

Numsgil · Post by **Numsgil** » Mon May 03, 2010 11:37 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm17 Move 17 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Tactics and Variations

Still according to plan, though the plan still isn't great

. I extend here, even though the stones are dead, because it creates some aji. White won't be able to 20, for instance, until he takes care of my 17 stone's group. There's a proverb to this effect: extend down from an atari on the third line. If white doesn't 18, I can capture the two white stones since I'll have enough liberties. Best way would be black 18, I think. I'd have some reasonable side territory and solid life. But I doubt white is going to let that happen.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm17 Move 17 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X O O 4 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . 7 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

edit: Fixed a typo

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Mon May 03, 2010 1:27 pm

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Mon May 03, 2010 1:42 pm

daniel_the_smith wrote:
Who's the pro that does the "four shapes" (that capture a stone on the third line) lecture at go congress? Because Numsgil needs to hear it.

KGS 4 kyu · Post by **fwiffo** » Mon May 03, 2010 1:53 pm

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Mon May 03, 2010 2:12 pm

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Mon May 03, 2010 2:51 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Strategy and Thoughts

Ok, it will be hugely embarrassing if I've missed something here. I can't read anything different to what I did before, and I can't see why you'd cut, atari, and then extend - it's like Black's not quite sure of what he wants to do? Ah well, this should only improve my chances of making something work along the bottom. My plans: I really want to cut at "a", but it's so obvious I assume Black will take "b" and I'll probably take "c". I'm tempted to approach at "d" but it's a bit silly I think - If Black pincers then my stones on the right just float. "d" works very nicely after "c" anyway, so it feels like the right move. "e" is huge but it's going to have to wait.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . c . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . b O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X a . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , e . . . . , O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Numsgil · Post by **Numsgil** » Mon May 03, 2010 4:53 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm19 Move 19 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Strategy and Thoughts

So this is out of order from what I showed before. Before I had 'a' then 'b'. But my concern is if I go at 'a' and white plays 'c' instead of answering, my black group will be baseless and in trouble. Whereas if white ignores my stone to play at 'd', my stones are still safe and I can either play to rescue the cutting stone, tenuki, or play 'e' as for large points.

'f' is an interesting point, but I can't see clearly what the results would end up looking like. So it's a bit like playing with fire.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm19 Move 19 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a O . O f . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X d . . . b . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X . c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hmm, so thinking about it at this point, maybe I would have been better off just playing at 19 directly instead of the sequence we just played. White's still technically cut in two but the cutting stone isn't exactly safe. I honestly have no idea if this diagram would have just been better:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm9 Move 9 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think I would still favor the result in game, though.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Mon May 03, 2010 4:58 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 Move 20 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Strategy and Thoughts

Ok, that's not a bad idea, Black's settling properly, which makes a lot of sense. I wondered about cutting now at "a" below, but it feels slightly premature. Black getting my last move point is very big with regards to territory, and that's something I can't let him have with 70 points komi. It's also helping me approach the top right more proactively, as the thicker I get the further I'm happy playing to create a big fight - maybe even the full low approach at "b". I have useful sente sequences at "c" following this move as well.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 Move 20 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X a . . . X c . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Mon May 03, 2010 5:53 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is the kind of play you hate to make. It strengthens White in exchange for just a few points of territory.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O 2 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is more like it. :b1:

makes White heavy, then :b3:

pushes out into the center and threatens an attack against White.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X 2 . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is big. It is almost double sente, and maybe Black should play it first.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, this cut is quite big. So I think I would not play this :b1:

until I had connected out into the center. If White plays at 1 first, though, I would not be happy.

Numsgil · Post by **Numsgil** » Mon May 03, 2010 11:31 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Move 21 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X 1 . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Tactics and Variations

So, one thing I hadn't considered till now: black should probably defend by descending. The problem is that white doesn't really need to answer (endgame move). So let's see what damage white can do if I don't defend:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Move 21 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . 3 X 4 . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X 5 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X 0 9 7 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think black is alive, but it's not exactly healthy. So I will take gote to defend. White will probably cut. Then I will take sente and build a corner enclosure on the left which also nullifies a bit of white's thickness on the bottom. (Question: how close is too close to a wall? I'm guessing the sweet spot is the wall height + 1 space jump rule of thumb again). 'c' would also work for this purpose, but I don't think it's as large a move.

White will then either play 'a' to capture the cutting stone (there's maybe a loose ladder here. But I can't read a way for white to make it work because of a shortage of liberties, so I think white needs to burn at least two stones here to capture the cutting stone) or 'b' to approach the corner enclosure and prevent a good extension. At which point I might try to invade white's corner.

If white let's me play 'b' as an extension from my corner enclosure, I think it's also a ladder breaker, so I can play it in sente as white captures the laddered stone. I'll have to double check that with more careful reading if the opportunity to play 'b' actually presents itself.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 Move 21 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . b , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 . . . X 1 . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . O X O O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Life In 19x19

27. topazg (1d) vs. Numsgil (8k)

Re: Malkovich #27 - topazg (1d) vs Numsgil (8k)

Re: Malkovich #27 - topazg (1d) vs Numsgil (8k)

Re: Malkovich #27 - topazg (1d) vs Numsgil (8k)

Re: Malkovich #27 - topazg (1d) vs Numsgil (8k)

Re: Malkovich #27 - topazg (1d) vs Numsgil (8k)

Re: Malkovich #27 - topazg (1d) vs Numsgil (8k)

Re: Malkovich #27 - topazg (1d) vs Numsgil (8k)

Re: Malkovich #27 - topazg (1d) vs Numsgil (8k)

Re: Malkovich #27 - topazg (1d) vs Numsgil (8k)

Re: Malkovich #27 - topazg (1d) vs Numsgil (8k)

Re: Malkovich #27 - topazg (1d) vs Numsgil (8k)

Re: Malkovich #27 - topazg (1d) vs Numsgil (8k)

Re: Malkovich #27 - topazg (1d) vs Numsgil (8k)

Re: Malkovich #27 - topazg (1d) vs Numsgil (8k)

Re: Malkovich #27 - topazg (1d) vs Numsgil (8k)