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 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #21 Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:10 am 
Lives in gote
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Posts: 655
Location: Czechia
Liked others: 29
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Rank: 1d KGS
KGS: Laman
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move #24, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Dusk Eagle:
no problem, my previous hidden comment was "no choice" and the same applies for this move. now it is your turn to do again something creative :).

if you don't mind, i prefer keeping prisoners as color+difference, otherwise i always get confused whether it shows captured black stones or stones that black had captured

_________________
Spilling gasoline feels good.

I might be wrong, but probably not.

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 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #22 Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:04 pm 
Gosei
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Rank: 4d
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[go]$$Bc Move #25, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I was debating between this move and a low right-side approach to his hoshi stone. Initially. I favored playing an approach to his 4-4 stone, with my plan of attack below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . a 2 . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If he extended to either :w2: or 'a', playing a jump to :b3: seemed good.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Preliminary idea.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . 5 . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 2 , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If he pincered instead, I would again play a one-space jump, but then turn to attack his pincer. His pincer would likely end up pretty deep within my area, enabling me a severe attack on it or his group to the left.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, this move made me rethink approaching this corner at this point in time. If he plays like this, I do not see a way to avoid overconcentration on the bottom side. This is ultimately what caused me to approach his 3-4 stone for now and save an approach to his bottom stone for later.

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

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 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #23 Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:11 pm 
Dies with sente

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move #25, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . 7 . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 1 5 . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 2 3 . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Why not the high approach? If white extends again on the left or makes a shimari in the upper left black can extend from the shimari in the upper right. This seems fine to me.

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 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #24 Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:00 am 
Lives in gote
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Posts: 655
Location: Czechia
Liked others: 29
Was liked: 41
Rank: 1d KGS
KGS: Laman
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move #26, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

black's kakari surprised me. to me it seemed clear that most urgent areas are bottom and right, where are black and white stones facing each others with a wide space in between, so he who plays there first can claim big territory and prevent the other from doing the same.

maybe it is because the sides are both pretty same and so they are miai. but in my opinion the star has surely more priority because black shimari is good as it stands but black kakari F3 would be unpleasant to ignore

i would be even happier if i could just play some joseki in the upper left and then return to this decision, but it would require to finish the joseki in sente and i am not sure i would succeed in it. also i believe black cannot do anything really bad in the upper left corner, probably something like G17 and it should be bearable. black obviously won't play E16, because his influence would be already limited by my C6 stone

last, i am not ultimately convinced D6 is the best possible move, but at least i think it can't do much harm

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Spilling gasoline feels good.

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 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #25 Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:23 am 
Lives in gote
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Laman
Was there a reason you didn't want to play F3 to more actively combat black's thickness? Did you feel it was just too close to black's wall and had no room for expansion or something? Also, if black approaches at that point now that you have your enclosure, how do you plan to respond?

_________________
"There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee

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 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #26 Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:10 am 
Lives in gote
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Rank: 1d KGS
KGS: Laman
Jedo:
Jedo wrote:
Laman
Was there a reason you didn't want to play F3 to more actively combat black's thickness? Did you feel it was just too close to black's wall and had no room for expansion or something? Also, if black approaches at that point now that you have your enclosure, how do you plan to respond?

well, i was not sure (again :)) about the right direction. my first instinct was indeed F3, straight against the black thickness. but yesterday i attended a lecture (game review) given by a 6d and he strongly critised marked move by white and said it should have been at a, because bottom side has no perspective while left is still big and wide opened:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Czech Women Championship, Katerina Babicka 4k - Klara Zaloudkova 2d
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . X . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . W . . X . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i chose the direction under impression of this. i have to admit, after reproducing the diagram above (link to a complete sgf), i didn't visualise the position precisely and it is not so much similar to our game, except it is the same corner :)

if black approaches now, i can either treat the sides as miai and take a (or other point on the right) and i think i can also pincer with b... hmm, although then i will have to combat black's thickness, maybe not the best plan.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move #26, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . b . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

last reason is that with C6 i slightly reduce the space available for black C15 stone, but it is not so important

_________________
Spilling gasoline feels good.

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 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #27 Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:22 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move #27, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . B . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I didn't mention it last time, so here's how I thought he could play to overconcentrate me on the bottom:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 3 . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 4 . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So, now he has decided to add a move to that corner itself. That's okay, I can still approach that corner later.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . B . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , a b . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Anyway, I've decided to play the pincer I did in the top-left as a way to potentially build up a large area on the top side. Playing a taisha or a knight's move at 'a' or 'b' below didn't seem like the right direction of play here (plus, taisha's not as interesting when both you and your opponent will have joseki dictionaries to keep you mainly on course). Let's see how this turns out.

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

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 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #28 Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:38 pm 
Lives in gote
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Posts: 655
Location: Czechia
Liked others: 29
Was liked: 41
Rank: 1d KGS
KGS: Laman
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move #28, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

black plays it tight. this close pincer aims to developing on both sides. white has to decide between two moves - D15 and E16.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Diagram 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , W 1 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Diagram 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 O 4 X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . 5 . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X W 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . 0 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i don't like either diagram very much, can't see a satisfying way how to attack black groups, but i came across this variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Diagram 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 O . X 8 . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 6 . 2 3 . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X W . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

black can limit my expansion from lower left corner (keima C6 is anyway played for the corner rather than for the side), and my stones limit the black shimari. other way it would be opposite, i would profit and black would profit, so ballance should be the same.

i don't feel very comfortable from the beginning, somehow the game doesn't have the right rhythm, however i think neither side has advantage so far.

_________________
Spilling gasoline feels good.

I might be wrong, but probably not.

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 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #29 Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:51 pm 
Gosei
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Rank: 4d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move #29, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't think I have much choice here. Now, he probably has to extend, after which :b3: is a must.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

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 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #30 Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:23 am 
Lives in gote
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Posts: 655
Location: Czechia
Liked others: 29
Was liked: 41
Rank: 1d KGS
KGS: Laman
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move #30, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . W . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

compared to E15, i found this move only in one dictionary (brugo.be), hopefully it will work as i wish (Move 28, Diagram 3). if black deviates from the shown sequence, great, we can try something new

i guess i should play a game without joseki dictionary, it could be more fun even if my insufficient knowledge proved disadvantageous

_________________
Spilling gasoline feels good.

I might be wrong, but probably not.

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 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #31 Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:18 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move #31, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This wasn't my first instinct. But after viewing the results of this position, I kind of like it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 0 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 O 4 X 2 . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 3 O 8 . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And I get sente, perhaps to play around 'a'. Him playing around 'b' after this seems pretty big too, so I must keep that in mind.

I rejected my first instinct, not because I thought it was bad in this situation; I just didn't like it as much:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 O 6 X 7 . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 5 8 O 1 . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . 2 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O X . . , 2 . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This might be fine, but IMO the other way is better. Don't trust me on that though ;-) .

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

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 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #32 Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:24 pm 
Lives in gote
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Posts: 655
Location: Czechia
Liked others: 29
Was liked: 41
Rank: 1d KGS
KGS: Laman
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #32, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X W O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

good, no joseki dictionary can help me any longer, so now it is just my vs Dusk Eagle's mind :)

the situation got pretty complicated. my first instinct was to save my stone from atari but then black connection C16 leave me without a move (a and b are miai and the resulting fight looks like a way to hell):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Diagram 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O a X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X b O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


so i thought about playing C16 myself, but black again has a good and simple counter (a, b miai):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Diagram 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O a X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . W X 1 O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


in the end i chose atari from the other side, E16. this result looks acceptable to me (i will have to decide if a is possible next, otherwise b):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Diagram 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a 5 O 4 X b . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 7 2 X W O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #33 Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:06 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 O 5 X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 8 3 X 1 O . 9 . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X W 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b4: connects at :wc:

Somewhat better for Black -- Suzuki-Kitani Small Joseki Dictionary

:)

Edit: Unhidden.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #34 Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:49 pm 
Gosei
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KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move #30, B+1
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . X c . . . .
$$ | . . . b . W a . . , .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Looking through GoGod for the above position, I found 35 games. black plays at ''a'' in 22, at ''b'' (Dusk Eagle's move) in 11, and at ''c'' in 2.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move #30, B+1
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O c X a . . . .
$$ | . . . B b O . . . , .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


In the 11 games with this, white played at ''a'' in 8, at ''b'' (Laman's move) in 2, and ''c'' in 1.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 1904
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 O . X 2 . . . 4
$$ | . . 1 X W O . . . , .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


In 1904 this game was played: Tamura, Yasuhisa 6d vs Tabuchi Yonezo 5d. White won.

Then in 1992, almost 90 years later, Yi Changho played against Yang Chae-ho this way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 6 above 4
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 8 . O . X 3 . . . .
$$ | . 5 2 X W O . . . , .
$$ | . 7 X 4 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


I'm not good enough to say if these are good or bad, but they're interesting :)

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 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #35 Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:51 pm 
Gosei
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[go]$$Bcm1 Move #33, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . B X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There's a change he expected me to capture. But I believe going here is a better move. That's just one smothered stone on the outside, whereas by going here I can likely claim the corner.

Perhaps he is playing like this to gain sente? If so, I expect the game to go like this, after which he seems free to tenuki, though I might be able to attack his group at some point in the future.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O . X 1 . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

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 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #36 Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:55 am 
Lives in gote
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Posts: 655
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Rank: 1d KGS
KGS: Laman
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #34, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O W X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i didn't include b C16 in previous post, because i thought Diagram 3 would be slightly better for black and i didn't want to post diagrams for all possible eventualities :)

i expect black to capture my stone, then i can continue with sansan a or capturing black stone b:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Diagram 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a O W X b . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

both are very big and i can't say for sure which is better - sansan is always worth much and good for controlling corner but difference between b G17 and w G17 is also not small. i prefer sansan right now, because black probably won't play G17 right away

it is an interesting game. as now, we have strong positions in all corners but no extensions along the sides

and i am glad to see observers commenting, i always enjoy publicity :)

note before submitting: black might also just take sansan himself and ignore my stone for now. then i would have to play b

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Post #37 Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:02 pm 
Gosei
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[go]$$Bcm1 Move #35, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B O O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This move seems more important than saving one stone on the outside. If he were allowed to play at the 3-3, he would be very safe, whereas if I take this point, my group becomes very safe and he will still have to invest another move to gain some safety for his group. So I don't think there's any other good choice for this move.

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

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 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #38 Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:38 pm 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Capture?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a O O X b . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . B W 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A note on Laman's expectation that Black will capture the White stone next. With a reasonable opponent that is unlikely. Black is securely connected, so that capturing the orphan gains almost nothing. (If you remove the marked stones as a tewari pair, why would Black play :b1: ? Look for Black to take the corner at "a" (as he did) or start a fight with "b". :)

Edit: Unhidden.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #39 Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:13 pm 
Lives in gote
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Posts: 655
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Rank: 1d KGS
KGS: Laman
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #36, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X W . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

hmm, yeah, sansan is big. black is better in this corner, luckily we are not high-dans so i will not worry about that few points for now

i think black won't take my stone at the moment, it seems too slow, so i can assume black has sente. next few moves will be about taking sides, which are still unusually empty

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Post #40 Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:10 pm 
Gosei
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[go]$$Bcm1 Move #37, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think now is the right time to play here. I can hopefully build up an area on the bottom or invade the corner in the moves following this. It all depends on how he plays. Below are a few ways I think the game could go.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . 3 , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 8 . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . 6 7 3 X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . 1 2 4 . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 1 , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

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