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Offline Jedo
 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #41 Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:59 pm 
Lives in gote
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To Dusk Eagle
Is there a reason why you didn't like the high approach?

_________________
"There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee
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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #42 Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:32 pm 
Gosei
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Jedo:
I had considered the high approach at some point in the past, but my biggest reason for not playing it now was not thinking about it here :mrgreen:.

It does seem quite interesting, like something I should have at the very least considered. I might be concerned about him undercutting the bottom area by playing like this though:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 1 . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Offline Laman
 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #43 Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:00 am 
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Rank: 1d KGS
KGS: Laman
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #38, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

black played the biggest move on the board. i thought about the answer for a while and considered a, b, c:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Diagram 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . a . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

now you can really appreciate black thickness staring at my corner from both sides. i would like to play a, but it is not very effective - black can take sansan or jump out. if he jumps, my chances to attack him are greatly reduced by his thickness, as i would have to take care of my "a" stone at some point. if he plays sansan, he can live inside in sente and thickness i can get wouldn't be of much use

if i played simply b, taking another big point and letting black play again in the lower left, i am dissatisfied with position after black c, white sansan, black d - black would develop both sides while being backed up by thickness in both adjacent corners

c is not perfect either, but i hope it is good enough. if black answers, i will continue with b and feel ok. i don't see a good answer for black anyway - keima leaves too wide gap, ogeima is a bit cuttable (and generally never good :)), two point jump is too low. if black doesn't answer locally, i assume black R11 (below b), then it becomes more interesting. i expect sequence like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #37, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . 4 . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 3 , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

and according to the minimax algorithm in my head, i think it is the best i can aim for.

nevertheless, i feel a bit behind, making slightly suboptimal moves when compared with Dusk Eagle. still a long way to go

_________________
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I might be wrong, but probably not.
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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #44 Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:30 am 
Gosei
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Laman:
Did you think about either a or b? What do you think of them?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #38, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . a . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . b X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #45 Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:28 am 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #37, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . 4 . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 3 , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My main comment is about how small :w2: is in this plan. Black has a secure corner in the top left, and White has a secure corner in the bottom left. Therefore a play by the opponent near either corner does not really threaten anything, and therefore a play that threatens to play near either corner does not threaten much, either.

The top right corner is vulnerable, however. i would seriously consider an invasion at "a" instead.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Move #36, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Backing up, I think that a play against the top right corner is good. The play in the game threatens to invade the bottom side, but Black is strong there.

Edit: Unhidden.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #46 Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:58 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #39, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In my last hidden comment, I gave the following sequence were he to play :w38::

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm38
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 8 . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . 6 7 3 X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . 1 2 4 . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But looking at it again, I don't really like the feeling it gives with my lower-right corner. So, I've decided to jump up instead. One of the problems with this though is that it gives him this reduction technique:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 X 4 . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . 1 2 . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't really like this, but it's not terrible, and I don't see how I can do any better. I'm starting to think playing the move below would have been better instead of :b37::

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But now, I really don't want to play that way, because if he plays :w40:, it makes the :b37:- :w38: exchange look really bad for me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . 4 . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So I'll be consistent and follow-up my last move.

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Offline Laman
 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #47 Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:14 pm 
Lives in gote
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Posts: 655
Location: Czechia
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Rank: 1d KGS
KGS: Laman
i will post another move in the morning.

emeraldemon:
b has similar aim as my move but i don't like it so much - it forces black to reinforce with F4, gaining more influence on the side and i still cannot easily attack him. plus it leaves unpleasant aji at sansan

a again forces black to take the side and gives me the corner (which i get anyway) and some influence, which doesn't seem useful, considering black positions around

now black played an interesting move, countering my plans, but i feel it is a bit overextended from the right and leaves some aji at the edge for me, so i should hopefully be able to take advantage of it


EDIT: sorry, moving the time to afternoon

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Offline Laman
 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #48 Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:40 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 655
Location: Czechia
Liked others: 29
Was liked: 41
Rank: 1d KGS
KGS: Laman
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #40, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i think there should be something for me at the lower side, but could not find it. surely there are some reduction moves on the fifth line, but they are inferior to taking empty side. i could also play something like H3 and still get out with the group easily, but it is not likely i would profit from attacking F5 (i would need to play both a and b):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Diagram 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . a . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 6 . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O 3 . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . 4 2 X . W . 5 . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

and even if we just take big points, it looks still quite even:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Diagram 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . 2 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 3 , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:wc: and :w2: are both also sort of overextensions, but i believe black cannot invade easily, just as i cannot invade lower side

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Offline Jedo
 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #49 Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:09 am 
Lives in gote
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Rank: 2D KGS
to Laman
Is there a reason why you didn't want to play closer to black's enclosure? Wouldn't this allow for a more severe double approach?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #39, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . 3 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Maybe a chance to use your thickness?

_________________
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Offline Laman
 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #50 Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:50 am 
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Rank: 1d KGS
KGS: Laman
Jedo:
Jedo wrote:
to Laman

Is there a reason why you didn't want to play closer to black's enclosure? Wouldn't this allow for a more severe double approach?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Move #39, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . 3 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Maybe a chance to use your thickness?

hmm, i cannot answer you very well. the simplest truth is that i didn't even consider points closer than in my diagrams. i would say you can't be very severe against keima shimari, unless you have a wall nearby. but that applies only to your formulation and not the moves...

i think if black pincers 1 with a, he can then extend to b and get pretty good almost-base. or maybe he could just play c, letting me secure one side and then attack my stone on the other side. if anyone else has something to say to this, i will be happy to read it

so far it is pretty quiet, peaceful game, should be good for studying strategy

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #51 Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:05 pm 
Tengen
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Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
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Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
for observer only:
this move is something i would never play unless it is a handycapped game.
bottom is too wide and easily invaded leaving shortage of points for black.
when i lose point balance i feel like i fell into a sandpit and can not escape. terrorable feelin.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #39, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


this is my preference but it is only my preference.
at least this picture maintain point balance.
i am only showing others how i think differently.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #39, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . B . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #52 Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:07 pm 
Gosei
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Rank: 4d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #41, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think this is definitely the biggest area now.

I didn't want to play one space closer, because I think that just makes an invasion too easy for him.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Like this, I have to deal with the bad aji of the connection at 'a'.

However, I don't want to play any farther away either, as that is making my area smaller than it has to be.

I'm hoping that my frameworks on the bottom and the left work together well, in that if he invades one area, I can use an attack to enlarge the other area. It should be interesting, but for now I must get back to studying integrals and RSA encryption for my exams, which though interesting is not nearly as fun.

_________________
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Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Offline Laman
 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #53 Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:26 pm 
Lives in gote
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Posts: 655
Location: Czechia
Liked others: 29
Was liked: 41
Rank: 1d KGS
KGS: Laman
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #42, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . W . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

according to plan

N7 and also the area of D7 are becoming big. and invasion w C11 possible

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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #54 Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:40 pm 
Gosei
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Posts: 1744
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KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
not for players:
Is something like this possible?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Move #42, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 1 . . 3 . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Move #42, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . W . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 1 3 . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 2 4 . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #55 Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:17 pm 
Tengen
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Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 505
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
not for the players:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Move #42, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 1 . . 3 . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

above is possible but!!!
if you want to be strong try avoid that ugly peep.
it is often tempting but usually ajikeshi.
i would not exchange that peep and go straight to 3.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Move #42, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . W . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 1 3 . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 2 4 . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


2 is out of the question answer for black.
but if he answer with 2 then you can tenuki.
exchange itself is your gain so there is no need to go any further.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #56 Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:53 pm 
Honinbo

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emeraldemon wrote:
not for players:
Is something like this possible?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Move #42, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 1 . . 3 . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Move #42, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 1 . 3 . . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think that :w3: is much to be preferred. Do not approach strong stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Move #42, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . b 3 . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 2 4 5 , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 1 6 7 . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . a . . 8 . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My first thought is :w1: here, aiming at "a" or "b". But :b2: prevents both. Now if :w3:, :b4: - :b8: is vulgar, but this still doesn't look so good for White.

A reduction at "b" instead of invading may be best, but I think that any play here now is premature.

Edit: Unhidden.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline SpongeBob
 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #57 Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:26 pm 
Lives in gote
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Bill Spight wrote:
... Now if :w3:, :b4: - :b8: is vulgar, but this still doesn't look so good for White.

I have wondered about this too often - now I have to ask: what does it mean if a move or sequence is considered 'vulgar'?

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Stay out of my territory! (W. White, aka Heisenberg)
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #58 Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:30 pm 
Honinbo

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SpongeBob wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
... Now if :w3:, :b4: - :b8: is vulgar, but this still doesn't look so good for White.

I have wondered about this too often - now I have to ask: what does it mean if a move or sequence is considered 'vulgar'?


I think of vulgar play as play anybody could find, play that requires no skill or imagination. :)

Edit: Let me make clear that I was not referring to the play of either of our protagonists, but of a possible variation. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #59 Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:54 pm 
Gosei
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Bill: I thought that was a very funny thing to say in the open while the game was still going on :mrgreen: .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #43, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This move plays on the border of our two frameworks, enlarging mine while opening up invasion opportunities into his region. However, if he protects against that invasion, I can form a loose connection between my two territories on the bottom and the left and build a mega-moyo.

I knew I wanted to play around this area, but I didn't see this particular point for a while. Instead, I was thinking about the related points labeled 'a', 'b', and 'c' below.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a c . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, none of them seem to support an invasion into his area as a follow-up like this one does.

He can try directly cutting, but I don't think that doing so at this time is advantageous for him. If he does it, then I'll post some diagrams. However, notice that if he directly cuts, I could get some squeeze opportunities on his ponnuki.

I am actually very pleased and excited about this move. It remains to be seen if these feelings are justified ;-) .

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 84. Laman (1d) vs. Dusk Eagle (1d)
Post #60 Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:29 am 
Tengen
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Posts: 4844
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OGS: magicwand
not for the players:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move #43, B+1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . a , . . X . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

if he wants to play there ...marked stone is correct.
what he played is full of bad aji and weak.
i am thinking "a" is a correct move though.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Board index » L19²GO (Malkovich) » 1-on-1 Malkovich games

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