11k vs 15k friendly match

[Mnemonic]

Hi, all.

I've recently played a game against a good friend of mine, and thought I'd post it online for a review. We are friends at the local club and play a lot against each other, and although I'm a bit stronger our games are all pretty interesting.
To the game: It was going pretty well (or so I thought) until I forced black to kill 2 of my groups, at which point I resigned.


Pointers for both sides would be appreciated. Thanks and thanks for maintaining an awesome forum.

http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=605

[SolarBear]

I'm not going to do a full review, but my general feeling is that Black's play is way too passive. Handicap stones are made to attack ! For instance, I'd play B14 around K16. B28 is another passive, territory-hugging response. Q12 would attack the stone, weakening the N16 group.

[Dusk Eagle]

Here's a quick review. The bulk of it focus around Move 28, but there's some other ideas as well.

(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]HA[3]KM[0.50]
PW[Mnemonic]PB[Zcartac]WR[12k]BR[17k]AB[pd][dp][pp]RE[B+Resign]
;W[de]
;B[qg]
;W[cn]
;B[fq]
;W[bp]
;B[cq]
;W[dl]
;B[iq]C[Very passive and unnecessary.]
(;W[nd]C[I don't really like this move, as it doesn't really threaten the corner at all.]
(;B[nc]C[This will only make white and black stronger, but black doesn't really need to get stronger. The variations might be better moves.]
;W[mc]
(;B[nb]
;W[md]
(;B[qm]C[Black seems to like these large-knight extensions, but there might be better moves here.]
;W[pq]
;B[oq]
;W[qq]
;B[qp]
;W[or]
;B[nq]
;W[nr]
;B[mq]
;W[rp]
;B[ro]
;W[rq]
;B[mr]C[Slow and uninteresting. There are bigger moves, like the top-left corner.]
;W[pj]
(;B[qj]C[To attack to a weak stone, don't attach to it! It only makes it stronger. This is a pretty fundamental principle which is not obvious to many weaker players, so if you (and black) get nothing else from this review, please read these two pages: http://senseis.xmp.net/?DontAttachWhenAttacking
http://senseis.xmp.net/?HowToAttack

It may be tough this knowledge at first, so let me point out a very simply way you could attack this stone (which is almost certainly not an ideal way to play, it's just a quick idea).]
;W[qi]
;B[pi]
;W[oj]
;B[ri]
;W[ph]
;B[qh]
;W[oi]
(;B[ec]C[See variations. End of comments.]
;W[dc]
;B[hc]
;W[jc]
;B[jb]
;W[ed]
;B[fc]
;W[gb]
;B[db]
;W[cc]
;B[lb]
;W[gc]
;B[fd]
;W[hd]
;B[ee]
;W[dd]
;B[ef]
;W[df]
;B[gd]
;W[ic]
;B[he]
;W[id]
;B[of]
;W[qd]
;B[qc]
;W[pe]
;B[oe]
;W[eg]
;B[ff]
;W[gf]
;B[ge]
;W[fg]
;B[hf]
;W[fe]
;B[gg]
;W[gh]
;B[hg]
;W[fo]
;B[in]
;W[hp]
(;B[ip]
;W[gq]
;B[gr]
;W[bq]
;B[br]
;W[cp]
;B[dr]
(;W[om]
;B[gp]
;W[go]
;B[hq]
;W[oo]
;B[ol]
(;W[op]
;B[qn]
;W[pn]
;B[nm]
;W[nl]
;B[pm]
;W[on]
;B[mm]
;W[qo]
;B[nk]
;W[hh]
;B[jf]
;W[ml]
;B[ll]
;W[mk]
;B[nj]
;W[kg]
;B[kf]
;W[mj]
;B[ni]
;W[nh]
;B[mi]
;W[li]
;B[mh]
;W[mg]
;B[ng]
;W[oh]
;B[mf]
;W[lg]
;B[lf]
;W[kj]
;B[ok]
;W[pk]
;B[pl]
;W[qk]
;B[rk]
;W[ql]
;B[rl]
;W[qi]
;B[rj]
;W[rn]
;B[rm]
;W[so]
;B[mo]
;W[kl]
;B[km]
;W[jl]
;B[il]
;W[jm]
;B[jn]
;W[im]
;B[hm]
;W[hn]
;B[ho]
;W[gn]
;B[jk]
;W[kk]
;B[ih]
;W[ii]
;B[jh]
;W[ki]
;B[cj]
;W[ch]
;B[bl]
;W[mb]
;B[ma]
;W[od]
;B[pc]
;W[kc]
;B[kb]
;W[ke]
;B[ld]
;W[lc]
;B[le]
;W[je]
;B[kd])
(;W[nl]
;B[pl]
(;W[nk]
;B[nm]
;W[mm]
;B[nn]
;W[on]
;B[no])
(;W[nm]
;B[nk]
;W[ok]
;B[mk]))
(;W[pl]
(;B[pm]
;W[nl]
;B[ok])
(;B[pk])
(;B[nl]
;W[pm]
(;B[pk]
;W[qk]
(;B[ok]
;W[ql])
(;B[ql]
;W[ok]))
(;B[qk]
;W[pk]
;B[ll]))))
(;W[fr]
;B[er]
;W[hr]
;B[fs]
;W[hq]
(;B[ir]
;W[hs])
(;B[oo]
;W[ks])))
(;B[hq]
;W[io]))
(;B[cc]C[Better approach.])
(;B[dc]C[Better approach.]))
(;B[nj]C[Cap. Take away white's running room.]
;W[ph]LB[qh:A]C[Shoulder hit. For black to tenuki and let white play 'a' would be unacceptable.]
;B[pg]C[Push up.]
;W[oh]
;B[nf]C[Seperate white's two groups.]
;W[mh]C[Jump to get out.]
;B[lf]LB[kd:B][kh:A]C[Keep the groups split. Black aims at 'a' and 'b'.]
;W[kh]C[Jump to safety.]
;B[kd]C[Eat up these stones.]))
(;B[qn])
(;B[dc]C[Big.]))
(;B[oc]C[This is better shape and leaves less aji in the corner.]))
(;B[pc])
(;B[lc]C[Pincer. Fight white.]))
(;W[nc])
(;W[dc])
(;W[qn]))

[Mnemonic]

Thanks guys. I'll be sure to pass it along.

[Magicwand]

group on top...is it really captured?
i think there is a way to save them.

if you save them you win.

i will let you figure it out.

[Mnemonic]

group on top...is it really captured?
i think there is a way to save them.

if you save them you win.

Yeah, that was my estimation too. I had a lot of aji to play with, so I left the group alone for a long time because I was confident in my ability to outread my opponent. Well, I guess that didn't happen.
I'll have another look at it.

Just to know where I should start looking: Did I still have a chance after move 152, or was it too late?

[Dusk Eagle]

I'm pretty sure you can save it at the point you resigned.

[Mnemonic]

hm, after some reading I think I found a ko sequence

$$Wc Ko?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 2 . 6 5 X 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . 1 X X X O X 8 9 0 . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 7 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Ko?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 2 . 6 5 X 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . 1 X X X O X 8 9 0 . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 7 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]

But I still don't know what to do with this

$$Wc White dead?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . b a . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 O C 1 X X X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc White dead?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . b a . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 O C 1 X X X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]

a and b both die (as far as I can tell) and if White plays 2 then Black plays 1 and becomes a false eye.

[Dusk Eagle]

In the first diagram, you're really close. You have an easy way to live at that point that doesn't involve ko.

$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . O X X X O X 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 1 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . O X X X O X 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 1 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]

In the second diagram, I've given you the first move of the sequence. So, do you see how white can live now? This next move is key.

Hint:

Throw-in

[topazg]

@Dusk Eagle:

The first alternative to Black playing in the top left fails for the same reason:

$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . a X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 4 3 O b 1 X X X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 2 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . a X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 4 3 O b 1 X X X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 2 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]

a and b are miai, but how about this?

$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . . 2 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 8 7 O 0 1 X X X O X 4 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 3 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . . 2 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 8 7 O 0 1 X X X O X 4 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 3 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]

This still looks dead to me ... Throwin first doesn't seem to work either?

$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O 3 2 X X X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O 3 2 X X X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]

$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O 4 2 X X X O X 7 6 . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 5 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O 8 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O 4 2 X X X O X 7 6 . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 5 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O 8 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]

[Dusk Eagle]

@topazg

D'oh, I'm wrong. I completely missed the connection at .

$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . 1 X X X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . 1 X X X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]

I guess I really should have noticed that. Oh well, I'll try to remember shapes like this for next time.

Anyway, it doesn't seem like white's alive at the end anymore. So now where is he?

http://lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=610

Conclusion:I don't know where white is alive.

[Mnemonic]

Well, I looked at it some more and couldn't figure it out, so opened your hide tags. Seem like the problem is well beyond my abilities. I only found a simplified Ko sequence by just looking at it. I had to do the rest with placing stones (which still got me nowhere).

But I guess it was still too early to resign, my opponents reading should be even worse than mine. I should have just tried it and hoped for a mistake.

[Magicwand]

@Dusk Eagle:

The first alternative to Black playing in the top left fails for the same reason:

$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . a X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 4 3 O b 1 X X X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 2 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . a X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 4 3 O b 1 X X X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 2 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]

a and b are miai, but how about this?

$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . . 2 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 8 7 O 0 1 X X X O X 4 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 3 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . . 2 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 8 7 O 0 1 X X X O X 4 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 3 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]

This still looks dead to me ... Throwin first doesn't seem to work either?

$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O 3 2 X X X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O 3 2 X X X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]

$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O 4 2 X X X O X 7 6 . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 5 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O 8 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O 4 2 X X X O X 7 6 . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O O O O O X 5 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O O , X X O O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O O X . . X O 8 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X . X X X X . X . . . . |[/go]

yea..you are absolutely correct.
i really didnt look at it too seriously and missed it.

but at their level i think it has good chance of living.