77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

robinz
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm92 robinz vs DIV - Move 92; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hmm, what is my opponent up to? This doesn't create any eyespace for him at all, and further invites this double peep - I can't see any way for him to keep everything connected in response. Most of my stones in the underlying area have far too many liberties for them to fall into any real difficulties (which is another plus for this move, strengthening the stone attached to). I will have to keep a bit of an eye on the C7 and B8 stones, but I don't see anything too worrying at the moment - I have lots of options to connect them to the north or south, or even to capture some of black's stones if he plays in a way to allow me to threaten them.

[Added a few minutes later] Actually, there is one line where black can actually cause a few problems:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc robinz vs DIV - Move 92; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 X 4 . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . 5 O O 2 3 . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

- which I don't instantly see a good way to respond to (C9 fails to the C8 atari followed by B9). But I don't have to push through with 2, and can defend instead - there's not actually any urgency for me to do anything here.
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by Laman »

i think by move 90 black already accumulated enough aji to resurrect his group:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Diagram 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . 2 . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 W 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . 3 . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O 9 . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 8 7 . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O 5 X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | . 6 O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


if white choose different 2:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Diagram 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . 2 . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 W . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . X . 8 . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . 0 O 7 . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 6 5 . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O 3 X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | . 4 O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Diagram 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . O . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . c X W . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X b X 1 O . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . W O X . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O X a X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | . O O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

at diagram 3, black has already one eye at E10 and second will make at a, b or c

it is not so easy to spot. i am afraid that by 91 C11 black didn't do himself much good. b B9 is now interesting but probably fail after w B10. it will be sad if the black group dies, considering it could have lived pretty easily at the beginning
Spilling gasoline feels good.

I might be wrong, but probably not.
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by DIV »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm93 robinz vs DIV - Move 93; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . 1 O O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I think I can gain some advantage by fighting hard here concerning those two stones below this play.
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm94 robinz vs DIV - Move 94; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . 1 X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, this is a lot more complicated and tricky for me than I thought this morning when I made my last move. My stones - particularly those two at C7 and B8 which I expressed only a little concern over - are in some danger. If black can capture those two then he may well have enough space for two eyes there. Whereas the two at C10 and D10 can be sacrificed if if proves necessary, as their capture will only provide black with one eye. (Although I still think I have decent chances of saving them - I basically have miai of connecting them to the south with C9 and pushing through at D11 and fighting my way out with ataris. The only flaw in this plan is black's C8 atari, which prevents the connection in sente. Then things get very messy, but I certainly have resources, including, as I have said, simply giving up the two stones and preventing black getting any eyes elsewhere.)

But given how important those two stones below are, I think my move is forced here. I don't think black can stop me connecting them out:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc robinz vs DIV - Move 94; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | . 4 O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | 3 O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . 1 2 . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . 6 . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

leaves me ahead in the capturing race. (Black has a few other choices, but they end similarly.) I will insert a disclaimer though: I've a nasty feeling I may be misreading quite badly. Indeed, I initially decided on this move, then when typing sequences up in this post I managed to convince myself it didn't work - but on coming back to it I now don't know what it was I saw that failed :-? (And I'm totally sober tonight, too ;-)) Certainly, if there is a refutation to this line of play, then I will lose this game. But none of the alternatives which I've been considering look very promising either - I considered giving up those 2 stones, enclosing black in (B5 from me now would certainly be sente) and trying to make a dead shape, but I'm pretty sure that black would be able to get at least a seki, which clearly is not good enough.

I'm feeling a lot more pessimistic about this game tonight than I did before, but I'm going to carry on fighting for at least a few more moves. I don't know exactly what lines DIV has been reading - if my play does have a refutation he won't necessarily find it. I'd be very interested to see what stronger players think about this situation, to read about after the game :)
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by DIV »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm95 robinz vs DIV - Move 95; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 1 . . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I think this is a pretty good move, not necessarily eliciting a response in a specific way but giving me several options.
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by Laman »

with B11 black could have captured the two white stones (b B11 prevents w D11):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Diagram 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . b O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B X . X . c . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 4 1 a X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O 2 X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | . 3 O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

in the game, the sequence would more likely be b B11 - w2 - b1 - w3 - b connect at a. but as robinz already pointed out, the capture provides black with only one eye. however, if black started with some sente preparation moves around b and c, he might be able to get big enough eyespace after the capture. hard to say if they would be or would be not sente

DIV:
DIV wrote:I think this is a pretty good move, not necessarily eliciting a response in a specific way but giving me several options.

would you write more about the options, possible continuations?
Spilling gasoline feels good.

I might be wrong, but probably not.
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by robinz »

Laman: thanks for your comments (even though I can't read them yet) - good to see there is still some interest in this game :)

Also, happy new year to all :D

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm96 robinz vs DIV - Move 96; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 X . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This wasn't a difficult decision at all - indeed, I didn't even consider any alternatives. The only thing I did check was that the black B5, white C5 sequence I showed in my last move still doesn't work for black - and it doesn't (by 1 liberty).

So right now the C10/D10 stones are the priority. Black's move prevents me from connecting them to the south, but with this move I connect to the North instead - black can't block without letting me capture some stones.

One longer-term think that I will have to think about at some point is what will becomes of my group in the upper-left. Black's last few moves have, for the moment at least, prevented them from having a base to the south (which had been my intention for them). I am going to have to think about ways to either get them two eyes or connect them to other living stones - it is true that the black stones cutting them off are theoretically "dead", but it'll take me far too long to actually capture the whole thing. But this isn't a major worry for now - those stones have plenty of liberties for the time being, and there are still many ways that I can make things more comfortable for them, by making eyes and/or capturing some of black's lose stones.

So overall I feel confident about this game at the moment - I wonder why I get such different feelings about this position every time I look at it after seeing a new move of my opponent. Or is this normal in turn-based games (this is my first one)?
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by DIV »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm97 robinz vs DIV - Move 97; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . 1 . . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hi there, it's freezing cold, well, -7F...so way below freezing. I want to kill these three stones. I don't know if I can exactly, but may be able to. Laman asked me to show some possibilities. here's a few that I think might work.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm97 robinz vs DIV - Move 97; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O 5 X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | . 7 O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | 6 O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | 3 1 4 . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | 8 2 O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This kills two, I like it well enough.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm97 robinz vs DIV - Move 97; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | 5 O . X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | . 4 O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | 3 O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . 1 2 . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't know if he'll play this...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm97 robinz vs DIV - Move 97; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 7 6 X O X . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X 2 . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O 3 X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | 5 O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . 1 . . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I dunno. I am not sure if he'll play anything like any of these in any potential combinations(i doubt it will go these ways). There's ko options on these stones as well. Since the start of this game my Go playing has gone from 5-20 games a week to less than one. I am noticing a serious lack in just what (and how I can) I want to do. We'll see. I don't know if this game is won or lost for either of us anymore, I want to get this black group resolved with life so I can look to reduce and build my territory elsewhere, this thing is freaking me out. That's about where I am at mentally.
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by Aphelion »

For DIV after the game:

This is why reading (and hence life and death) is SO SO KEY. This should be a relatively simple read, quite possible for even ddks after some time.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | 0 X . . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | 5 O . X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | 9 4 O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | 3 O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | 7 1 2 . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | 8 6 O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm98 robinz vs DIV - Move 98; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X 1 . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Only move, obviously. I discussed this a couple of moves back, and don't see anything new to add - there are a few different moves black can try, but every sequence I have seen leads to a capturing race in which I am ahead by 1 liberty. If I have misread anything, the most likely is that black can get a ko somehow - if so, that's very bad, as black must have loads of local ko threats whereas I have virtually no ko threats of any real value. But I can't see a way for black to get a ko, and in any case there's no point worrying about this now when any other move simply concedes those three stones.
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by DIV »

I hope people haven't been commenting too much just because of holidays, it's been picking up a little. Hopefully a sign of more to come.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm99 robinz vs DIV - Move 99; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | 1 X O . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Reading this out I am not sure I can actually do it...maybe this(below)? I think that continuation is my only possibility, but as I said, I am either misreading or being outplayed at this point, boo. I am wondering what Aphelion is saying, I imagine it's something along the lines of 'you misread fool', haha.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm99 robinz vs DIV - Move 99; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | 7 X . . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | 6 O 5 X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | 3 4 O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | 2 O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | 1 X O . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If this stuff doesn't work, I can still try to set up a position to kill the full triangle, though I don't think I can at all. I need to play through and try and connect I think, or this big group is out and I am out.
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm100 robinz vs DIV - Move 100; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | X X O . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can't quite tenuki, or the peep at A7 destroys me. But after this move of mine it is absolutely clear that nothing works for black. (Not even the throw-in at B7, since black can't play A6 afterwards without putting himself in atari.) I wonder what he thinks he's seen (or perhaps has actually seen, which will leave me feeling like an idiot)?

I also note from his unhidden comment above that he isn't planning on resigning the game at any point soon. I'm pretty sure that if this group dies (and it really does look very much like a "when" rather than "if" to me now) I'm ahead by a very comfortable margin. Black can probably get some decent reductions in sente by threatening to connect or live, but then I have plenty of reductions of my own still open to me.

Of course, if I have missed some clever tesuji (or indeed something really simple which my brain is refusing to see), I will look back on this comment and be embarassed. But I can only play the game as I see it.
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by DIV »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm101 robinz vs DIV - Move 101; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . 1 . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | X X O . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Bleh, capturing those seems impossible at this point, haha. I overlook obvious plays. We'll see what I can do in the future, if anything. for now, move in here I guess.
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm102 robinz vs DIV - Move 102; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | X X O . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, that tenuki I assume is an admission that the bottom-left is a lost cause...

I realise this move of mine is just meekly giving up my sente and probably a good handful of points with it - but I want to play things safe and make as sure as I can that black's group can't get out anywhere. My most conservative count now gives me about 120 points (in territory + dead black stones), while the most optimistic ones for black come to a bit less than 100, so all I really have to do to win is make sure it stays dead and make sure the rest of the endgame isn't all 1-way traffic in black's direction. And I'm sure the latter won't happen when I have plenty of interesting things to be doing. My priorities for the rest of the endgame (other than of course keeping the lower-left well and truly dead) include (in rough order of importance):

1) Some big reduction of black's upper side - there seems to be so much aji there that I'm really not sure where's est to start! I expect black to shore up his defences here somewhat with his next move, but I should still have something left.

2) Rescuing my M15 stone - the difference between a best-case and worst-case scenario for me in this region of the board looks like perhaps 15-20 points - so actually this could well be the biggest thing left.

3) Some moves against black's lower-right group (R2 looks like the best start here - it's certainly at least moderately big).
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by DIV »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm103 robinz vs DIV - Move 103; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . 1 O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | X X O . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I kinda feel like I'm on my last legs here, I don't know if I can get this black group life, but have to to be in this game still. I am going to try to use some fancy cuts and whatnot in the future to get it alive but...bleh. I assume most people have stopped commenting because I should have resigned already.
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