87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

ketchup · Post by **ketchup** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:16 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm21 Captures: B:0 W:0 Move 30 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 0 X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kayres · Post by **Kayres** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:05 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Captures: B:1 W:0 Move 31 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

obvious sente.. well i guess he will play like this. And I will decide about if I play a or b first. Both are interesting for me, neither seem bad. But there is no way this is going to end up in gote for me. So i'm totally fine

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Captures: B:0 W:0 Move 30 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . b O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Aphelion · Post by **Aphelion** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:36 pm

This is crude / vulgar imo. W should have played 1 directly instead of at the marked point. Now black is stronger with better shape after the captures.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X C X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Perception · Post by **Perception** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:04 pm

Aphelion wrote:
This is crude / vulgar imo. W should have played 1 directly instead of at the marked point. Now black is stronger with better shape after the captures.
$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X C X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X C X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Even worse is that black can push at a and cut at b because white can't capture in a ladder anymore. That means black d18 is sente since white needs to defend against the cut. Black can defend :bc:

by extending down the side and :wc:

has lost its original meaning of building thickness to attack the pincer stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . a W O . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . O . b . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This all makes sense in my head (at the time of writing) but I could be wrong. As always corrections are welcome if you think I made a mistake.

youngjae · Post by **youngjae** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:25 pm

@Aphelion

What is interesting is that in many situations, this :w1:

is a good move. This does not seem to be one of those situations though. In fact it is a good example of Joseki poisoning. I think Go Seigen sensei's words say it best. 'Choosing Joseki without paying attention to the surrounding position is like taking aspirin for a cold instead of a headache...' or something like that

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X C X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Instead of :w1:

in the game, I thought the following idea was more interesting.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 7 4 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 0 X X 3 X . . . . O . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Continuing...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 8 2 1 O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 5 3 X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . | $$ | 6 4 7 . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White 9 =

Black 10 = :w4:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . 6 . 4 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X 2 X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . | $$ | X X O 1 O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | 5 3 O . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think this sequence makes better use of white's stones around the board. I think this sacrifice strategy is particularly good for White because his thickness is almost perfect and the
two :bc:

stones have become an attractive target.

If black in the second diagram extends to :w3:

instead of the hane at :b2:

the situation becomes more complicated. At the least white can live in the corner, but there is also the potential for a big ko. White has a more ko material than Black, so this should be to White's advantage. Even if White loses some stones on the outside, the exchange of :w1:

for

in the initial diagram makes it bearable because Black will end up somewhat over-concentrated.

Thoughts?

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:48 pm

youngjae wrote:
$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . 6 . 4 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X 2 X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | X X O 1 O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | 5 3 O . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . 6 . 4 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X 2 X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . | $$ | X X O 1 O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | 5 3 O . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think this sequence makes better use of white's stones around the board. I think this sacrifice strategy is particularly good for White because his thickness is almost perfect and the
two stones have become an attractive target.

If black in the second diagram extends to instead of the hane at the situation becomes more complicated. At the least white can live in the corner, but there is also the potential for a big ko. White has a more ko material than Black, so this should be to White's advantage. Even if White loses some stones on the outside, the exchange of for in the initial diagram makes it bearable because Black will end up somewhat over-concentrated.

Thoughts?

youngjae · Post by **youngjae** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:02 pm

@Magicwand

Thank you Magicwand, I missed that

.

In that case. If White plays :w1:

here first the sequence still works I think.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . | $$ | X X O . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Do you have any other ideas as to how white could have played differently in the game? I would be interested to know how you would have played.

schilds · Post by **schilds** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:10 pm

@youngjae

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:34 pm

youngjae wrote:@Magicwand
Thank you Magicwand, I missed that .

In that case. If White plays here first the sequence still works I think.
$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | X X O . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . | $$ | X X O . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Do you have any other ideas as to how white could have played differently in the game? I would be interested to know how you would have played.

youngjae · Post by **youngjae** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:40 pm

@schilds

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b X X O X . c . . O . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think this is the diagram you are referring to correct?
I can understand why you might not like the sequence for Black, but I do not agree that sacrificing those stones is a good idea. The whole point of sacrificing stones is that you get something in return. Maybe you plan to play 'a' or something like that? But if white gets to play 'b', not only is that a huge corner but the two :bc:

stones are going to be in for a tough time and white can aim at 'c' to go after your shiny new ponnuki. I think this is too good for white.

youngjae · Post by **youngjae** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:48 pm

@Magicwand

Yep, touche.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . | $$ | X X O . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Okay I hope I have not mucked up again but... maybe White can play :w1:

even earlier. The only problem is now 'a' is Black's sente, so this sequence is starting to look much less appealing.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . | $$ | X X O . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Still, as I asked before, what would you have done Magicwand?

schilds · Post by **schilds** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:54 pm

youngjae wrote:@schilds
$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b X X O X . c . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b X X O X . c . . O . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think this is the diagram you are referring to correct?
I can understand why you might not like the sequence for Black, but I do not agree that sacrificing those stones is a good idea. The whole point of sacrificing stones is that you get something in return. Maybe you plan to play 'a' or something like that? But if white gets to play 'b', not only is that a huge corner but the two stones are going to be in for a tough time and white can aim at 'c' to go after your shiny new ponnuki. I think this is too good for white.

Well, by sacrifice I didn't mean simply ignore the whole top left and tenuki. I'd still be looking for a play in the top left, though as you've said, if there's nothing on the outside then there's no reason to give white the corner.

youngjae · Post by **youngjae** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:58 pm

@schilds

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:04 pm

youngjae wrote:@Magicwand
Yep, touche.
$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | X X O . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . | $$ | X X O . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Okay I hope I have not mucked up again but... maybe White can play even earlier. The only problem is now 'a' is Black's sente, so this sequence is starting to look much less appealing.
$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | X X O . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . | $$ | X X O . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Still, as I asked before, what would you have done Magicwand?

variation below is really bad for white because of cutting point 'a'

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . | $$ | X X O a O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

how about probe at '1' before playing bad liberty reducing move.
i really didnt think about it seriously but it might bring better result than actual game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 X X . X . . . . O . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

youngjae · Post by **youngjae** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:16 pm

@Magicwand

Yes I did mention in my post that I did not think this was good for exactly this reason.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 X X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . | $$ | X X O a O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I quite like this idea though

. I know you said you have not really thought hard over it, but are you thinking if Black plays 'a' you will play 'b'? And if Black plays the hane at 'c' extend to 'd' perhaps?

Sorry about all the questions. Go is so rich with variation so all I want to do is learn!

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . d 1 X X a X . . . . O . . . O O X . | $$ | . . b . O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . B . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Life In 19x19

87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)