87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

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ketchup
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Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Post by ketchup »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm31 Captures: B:0 W:0 Move 32
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
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$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Post by Kayres »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures: B:1 W:0 Move 33
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Hmm... seems this is the best move i can play here. I really don't like that he gets away with this but I can't do much against it in my opinion. Still, the corner is open, but he gets good thickness. My ponuki will help me later on, I am sure, but now it seems I don't get much.



I thought about pushing, but he has some nice sequences here:

This way I get 3 stones and I am really thick on top, but his left side looks extremely attractive for him. And also, his corner seems too big in comparison with what i have got.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Captures: B:0 W:0 Move 33
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . 1 O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O 3 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . 8 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Another variation, when I push otherwise instead:

Now this seems similiar, only that I broke up his corner. But here he can decide whether to take the corner or have influence on the left side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Captures: B:0 W:0 Move 33
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . 4 3 1 O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O 5 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Besides, he could block at :w5: instead of :w2: . This seems to destroy my aji and give him a better thickness. It seems to be a thank-you move.


I also thought about this:

Playing a bit flexible locally but trying to attack his formation on the right fiercely. It seemed too early, too immature for me. I don't have a good feeling with this. I don't like playing too stiff and having only one purpose in mind.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Captures: B:0 W:0 Move 33
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 3 . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



So I will stay calm and see what he will do next. But it seems I will have to be slightly more active. But no problem with that, I am confident with my positions all around the board.



I guess he will tenuki and take a big point like in the following diagram. Playing another move locally is a mistake in my opinion.

So I guess he will go with something like b. If he plays something like a, I will take b of course.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures: B:0 W:0 Move 33
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a B O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




A question for later: It seems I got tricked in a way. I can't tell how or when, but I should have sente. Maybe you can answer this question. Please tell me if I am allowed to read it now or only after the game, if you do so.



But actually... When I think about it a little deeper.. I might have some techniques to break up his wall.. But I am not sure. I feel tricked :scratch:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Captures: B:0 W:0 Move 33
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . 5 4 2 O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Or well, maybe this way?:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Captures: B:0 W:0 Move 33
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . 2 O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Maybe that's a good way to punish if he plays tenuki. I don't like getting tricked so I will fight back if he plays around 1 :D
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Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Post by ketchup »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm31 Captures: B:0 W:0 Move 34
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Trying to fix my obvious shape weakness with a move right now feels so BAD. I'm just not good enough. This black has too good a shape. Maybe I should have just played e18 directly, rather than the outside cut. Worst part is, this shows how incorrect f17 seems to be. The jump at g17 felt too greedy to allow for black, but maybe I could have came out ahead of that in some(better) way. I should have read it better! I'm just not reading well enough. This move feels slow, but I think it's a decent way to pressure black and try to salvage what I can out of it.
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Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Post by Magicwand »

for the observers only
below is a perfect example of riding the rhythm.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm31 Captures: B:0 W:0 Move 34
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 5 9 7 . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . 6 . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


below is too good for black.
35 can be at "a" also.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm31 Captures: B:0 W:0 Move 34
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a 5 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Post by Kayres »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures: B:1 W:0 Move 35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



This seemed really slow to me.. It is extremely solid but it is not doing much is it? It protects the cut when I push through, but this is not the only thing to pay attention to if you have a wall.

But this move has only one purpose: making his wall safe. So why not play a?

It puts a bit more pressure on my stone on the left side though. Maybe that's why he played it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures: B:1 W:0 Move 33
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . a O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Anyway, when I should analyse this position right now, his top is not very interesting for him because his right top group is low and his left top group is high. They don't work well together.

His right side remains a question mark for me. It seems urgent to him to play there and reinforce his group, but I'm curious about when that will happen. If he decides to, I know I will either get the corner or the side. I won't make things easy for him aswell.

Bottom.. looks more interesting to me than to him I think. And about the left side: It has developed quite nicely for him, but my move will make it difficult for him.



If he pincers, I will go like this:

So to say, if he decides to emphazise his left side, I will emphazise bottom. But no way I would call any of these "territory".


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Captures: B:1 W:0 Move 35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



If he plays like the following, I will help my stone on the left side. I think he won't play this way. I feel he would feel uncomfortable.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Captures: B:1 W:0 Move 35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I thought about :bc: here, but this seemed not to work so well because of this here:

This way I would fail to help my lonely stone on the left side and even would lose the opportunity to develop bottom. approaching from the other side at a seems to hurt :bc: and my stone on the left side too much.


And with this, I would not be attacking his corner as much as with the move I've decided to play.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Captures: B:1 W:0 Move 35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . 2 O . a . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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ketchup
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Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Post by ketchup »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm31 Captures: B:0 W:0 Move 36
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What can I say? There's little choice here for me. My style is not one that will let my opponent take an easy extension AND support his stones on the left side easily. Pincer is best. Far pincer seems better to me. Although my reading is atrocious, I have a hard time with thinking that a close pincer is the better move. I also want to see more fighting overall in the game. Which leads me to try such crazy things as a far pincer when the positions are like this.

In my case I see something like this if I were to try to force a close pincer. 39 or x would be his next response I believe. In my views, 39 is most likely due to black's overall attraction for solidity. Overall, black is expanding more solidly while taking profit. I dislike the idea of that:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm31 Captures: B:0 W:0 Move 36
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 x . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 7 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . a . O . 8 . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Also want to add there are such things as a and b below which are way too painful for me to think about :(
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Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Post by Kayres »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures: B:1 W:0 Move 37
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . B . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



As I have expected. Now his left side looks good and also quite secure, but I would not call it territory. I can still reduce it a lot and even run out. And top left is also not his yet. Now I will develop my bottom, that's why I played this move. I expect him to cover my last move now, like this:

This could be one possibility. I like the jump because it threatens to get out the stone on the left side with b. I don't think he will let me do this. It would sour his mood. And besides, he should be happy with :w1: . And I still can pull the stone out later on.

What I get here is the bottom looking quite nice for me and some outer stones for attacking his group on the right side later. This way it will be easy for me to get some stones around a to make my bottom more promising.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Captures: B:1 W:0 Move 37
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . 2 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . B 6 . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 3 4 . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I also thought about this here:

This seems also very good for me. Maybe even better. A disadvantage maybe would be that my bottom is too big to be mine in the end. So to say, that he could easily invade and live. I would chase him and put up a double attack on his new group and on the group at the right side, but things could get difficult for me.


But maybe I am going to decide to play this way.



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Captures: B:1 W:0 Move 37
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . 6 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . B . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




Note about Malkovich games genereally:

You seem to not necessarily read more, as I thought, but think more about decisions concerning direction of play. Before I played I did not think that it would be this way.. Quite interesting. But maybe this will come later on.
This game still seems quite simple to me.

It could get interesting if he decides to pincer my last move. But i think that is unprobable
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Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Post by walleye »

ketchup wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm31 Captures: B:0 W:0 Move 34
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


...The jump at g17 felt too greedy to allow for black, but maybe I could have came out ahead of that in some(better) way. I should have read it better! I'm just not reading well enough...


ketchup:
I don't understand. Before this variation was played out, you said "I do not believe the result is fun for black to have to suffer, especially when you consider the overall stones." Why are you not happy now? Isn't it what you wanted to happen?
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Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Post by ketchup »

walleye wrote:
ketchup:
I don't understand. Before this variation was played out, you said "I do not believe the result is fun for black to have to suffer, especially when you consider the overall stones." Why are you not happy now? Isn't it what you wanted to happen?


Walleye:

I do not understand. I quite strongly said I did not play the top correctly after seeing what it came to. I followed up by saying I did not read correctly as well. What do you want me to say? Is this passive aggressive way to assert a point you are trying to make? I'm not a fan of this. If you have something to say, why not just say it? Say that my move at f17 was a mistake or say that I played badly. I do not understand why you think I WANTED this to happen. Why would I be happy with an obviously uneven result(see bad) for white? That's a joke right?

Examples:
walleye wrote:For Walleye

ketchup wrote:...I'm aware this could be due to my bad reading too though...


ketchup:
So you've done some reading. Can you show us just one variation? In your opinion, what would be a reasonable sequence of moves for both players? I will even make it easier for you. Just tell us what do you think will happen after black responds at F18.

walleye wrote:
ketchup wrote:...The jump at g17 felt too greedy to allow for black, but maybe I could have came out ahead of that in some(better) way. I should have read it better! I'm just not reading well enough...


ketchup:
I don't understand. Before this variation was played out, you said "I do not believe the result is fun for black to have to suffer, especially when you consider the overall stones." Why are you not happy now? Isn't it what you wanted to happen?


Continuing on with the game:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm31 Captures: B:0 W:0 Move 38
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 8 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I know nothing.
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Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Post by walleye »

ketchup:

Chill out, man. I'm just trying to find out what was going through your head when you played those moves. Isn't it what Malkovich games are for. I think your reading was excellent; Black played exactly as you predicted. However, your own evaluation of the outcome seems to have shifted from positive to negative.


for observers:
What do you think? Has ketchup made a reading or a judgement mistake. I'm not sure myself. Perhaps he hasn't read far enough. He stopped at move 32 (see his post #42), but Black response after that was kinda obvious. Perhaps this is simply a lack of joseki knowledge.
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Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Post by ketchup »

walleye wrote:ketchup:

Chill out, man. I'm just trying to find out what was going through your head when you played those moves. Isn't it what Malkovich games are for. I think your reading was excellent; Black played exactly as you predicted. However, your own evaluation of the outcome seems to have shifted from positive to negative.


walleye:
Maybe I misunderstood, and I apologize for that. Mostly, a lot of your comments to me looked as if you were trying to hint to me that my reading was bad over and over. It seemed to me that due to the emphasis at those portions where I spoke about my bad reading, that you were trying to emphasize that for a reason as well. I do not know the reason, and it would've been better to just say it directly. It felt like someone was rubbing salt over my self-declared weakness. I guess I looked too deeply into it. Again, sorry :)

To answer your question a little better, I think you'd have to be very confident to like this white's position here. It's what I wanted(in the sense that I received decent outside influence), but I gave up a lot for it(it's only move 34!). I was hoping to play more aggressive, and keep the initiative(sente), but I was unable to do so. I feel as a big part of this is due to my mistake in play. This is hard to handle. I wanted the pincer left open to be my move, rather than to keep answering his moves. It doesn't feel so good as white. I also thought I had found a good pattern that would lead me to a better game overall, but that turned out wrong as well. So it's an issue with my perception of what I wanted the top left to come out versus how the top left actually came out. This was way too disheartening. Also, I feel like I am losing my chance to use my sente effectively. Considering this is still the "early" game, it hurts a lot!

Hope that helps to see what my mindset is for that top left.
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Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Post by Kayres »

I am going to post my thoughts before I play the move. This seems more natural to me :D. Until now it felt like I played a move and started to justify why I did this. But I want to do it the other way round. So.. spoiler first, then my move ;)

Besides, don't forget I have captured one stone. Maybe it will be very close - I need every point :D

Okay he played the move I expected.. And I think it's also a good move, so no problem with that. Now his left side looks quite nice, but bottom and right side is looking more and more promising for me. I will be able to attack his right group easily and make lots of points.

I really think he will spend another move on the left because I can pull out my stone very easily. Maybe it will go like this:

I will attack his group. My groups are all safe, he has one moyo and a very weak group. So it's easy for me to decide what to do.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Captures: B:1 W:0 Move 37
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 4 . O , O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . 2 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . B . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



However if he refuses to play :w3: , I can break through his moyo easily, creating great aji and maybe even get the corner. I don't know what he will play instead of :w3: of the last diagram, but a move to reinforce his group on the right seems urgent. So maybe it will go like this:

If he reinforces, I have a lot of stuff I can do. I have a, b and c, which all look quite good. If I decide to play any of those, the game will become interesting and it will lose it's clearity.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Captures: B:1 W:0 Move 37
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . O . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . 2 . . . . . . . . . O 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . B . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Anyway, the move I play has such a nice feeling, I can't resist playing it. It seems to be sente and it allows me to have a great center and bottom position. I love to make this decision




Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures: B:1 W:0 Move 39
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . B . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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ketchup
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Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Post by ketchup »

Oops sorry! Fixed the captured stone mistake. I also want to add a thank you to my opponent for the reminder, and for playing at a steady pace. I like that we are getting one move per day in each.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm31 Captures: B:1 W:0 Move 40
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I want the most solid move(maybe I mean the best shape move?) here I can find. This seems to be it. It also seems to make pretty good shape with my other stones, so I can't complain too much about this feeling a bit submissive. Pretty much, I just want to play solidly, until I can attack. If I attack straight out, I think it just makes my overall game too harsh as EVERY group of mine would be trying to run.

-edit-
Am I too late in playing patiently now? I want to try out different things WHILE trying to be "patient", but it's proving to be difficult. I would really like a chance to take the initiative back.
I know nothing.
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Aphelion
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Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Post by Aphelion »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm31 Captures: B:1 W:0 Move 40
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I personally think this is the solid shape move here. Thoughts?
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Magicwand
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Re: 87: ketchup (3k) vs. Kayres (2k)

Post by Magicwand »

Aphelion wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm31 Captures: B:1 W:0 Move 40
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . . . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I personally think this is the solid shape move here. Thoughts?
i think they are both solid shape.
personally i was thinking same move as actual game.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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