Vulnerable groups : memorised or re-analysed ?

[judicata]

First, to end speculation on the game Dusk Eagle posted, here are the first several moves of that game (I've removed the opponents name, although the entire game is publicly available):



It appears the sequence was played pretty early, and looks very good for white.

Don't be embarassed--it will prevent improvement. As others have said, don't place too much emphasis on the corners. Although the corners are the easiest place to create territory, "capturing" some points in the corner does not come without a cost. Besides, if you really want to make territory in the corners you open in (i.e., the corners you play in first) open on the 3-3 point.

I would also encourage you to play some real people--don't let embarassment hold you back!

Finally, as far as a "sandbox" you can experiment posting a game here in this thread--you won't break anything.

[hyperpape]

I'll try : I just don't like feeling embarrassed But is there a sandbox on the forum in which one can practice uploading games, as this would be my first attempt at such a thing ?

Just in case you hadn't seen it, here are instructions: http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=833.

[Chaa006]

First, to end speculation on the game Dusk Eagle posted, here are the first several moves of that game (I've removed the opponents name, although the entire game is publicly available):

It appears the sequence was played pretty early, and looks very good for white.

Don't be embarassed--it will prevent improvement. As others have said, don't place too much emphasis on the corners. Although the corners are the easiest place to create territory, "capturing" some points in the corner does not come without a cost. Besides, if you really want to make territory in the corners you open in (i.e., the corners you play in first) open on the 3-3 point.

I would also encourage you to play some real people--don't let embarassment hold you back!

Finally, as far as a "sandbox" you can experiment posting a game here in this thread--you won't break anything.

OK, many thanks. All advice heeded and taken on board. I have played real people in the past (many of them : Brian Chandler, Stuart Dowsey and Alan Fairbourn were probably the highest graded players I ever had the privilege of playing against), but at the moment I am playing table tennis against real people and Go against the computer when I am stuck indoors !

I have attached my most recent game against MFoG, basically because I can conceal my embarrassment at my awful moves behind the satisfaction of having won

Hyperpape : many thanks for the link; it arrived just after I'd pressed "Submit" but I think I have done it correctly ...

[daniel_the_smith]

P.S. Daniel-the-Smith : I have just looked for "Five might live but the sixth is dead." in Go Proverbs Illustrated, but can't find it; obviously there must be a very large number of Go proverbs, so not all could possibly be included, but I wonder if you remember where you came across that one ?

Here's one place: http://senseis.xmp.net/?path=GoProverbs ... xthWillDie

Proverbs aren't meant to be too deep, IMO; the main point is that you don't have time to make a bunch of separate groups live individually.

---

A situation where you have to keep track of all your opponent's sente moves against your groups is inferior to one where you don't, all other things being equal. The solution isn't to start keeping better track of these moves; the solution is to stay out of positions where your opponent has them at all. (A few are unavoidable, probably, but you should take great pains to minimize them...)

Another thing to think about: sente moves like that are very likely to be unignorable ko threats. It doesn't take too many of them to get into a position where you both know your opponent will win any ko. At that point, any sticky situation becomes favorable to your opponent, since they just have to make ko.

[Chaa006]

Here's one place: http://senseis.xmp.net/?path=GoProverbs ... xthWillDie
Proverbs aren't meant to be too deep, IMO; the main point is that you don't have time to make a bunch of separate groups live individually.(snip)

Thank you. I was thinking of treating myself to a copy of Milton Bradley's New Go Proverbs Illustrated as a late Christmas present, but maybe I should save my money and just read the Sensei's proverbs online (Not so easy to do in bed, 'though).

[Dusk Eagle]

From what I can tell, one of your problems (and it's a common one among weaker players, including myself when I started) is that you struggle to recognize where the big points are on the board. That's what I've focused on most in this review. None of your groups died or got too weak in this game, so I couldn't focus on vulnerable groups all that much, but hopefully this will be of use to you anyway.

[Chaa006]

Thank you, Dusk Eagle : I very much appreciate your review. I am aware of (some of) my weaknesses, and when I was playing humans regularly I learned to avoid a few of them, but these days I am very much out of practice and am having trouble even getting back to 17 kyu against MFoG (I'm winning more than I'm losing now, but until I start seeing the occasional 16 kyu rating by the program I will know that I am still very very rusty !). I've just finished another game against MFoG, and again it resigned, but I still lost a couple of small groups through complete stupidity on my part. I will now stop playing and work through your review. Thanks once again.

Later : OK, worked through the review, which was very helpful. I will work through it a few times more to make sure I haven't failed to absorb something. But a comment, after some introspection : it is not that I don't recognise that the moves I make are frequently small; it is more that I lack the confidence to play the big move, because experience has taught me that I lack the skill to make proper use of such a move subsequently. I think that this is one of the down-sides of playing against a computer with its skill level set to match one's own : it is very easy for an 18 kyu human to play small moves against an 18 kyu computer yet still come out on top; whereas if I were to set the computer to play at shodan level, I would have to play a completely different class of game. Little moves would be punished mercilessly, and only well thought out big moves would have any chance of succeeding. I would still lose, of course -- that goes without saying -- but it might help me to up my game. What do you think ?

Much later : well, I decided to investigate your variant in which you play W14 at S4; I set MFoG to play at shodan level, then tried various approaches in the T1 corner until I found one that allowed me to defend the corner against MFoG, and then used that as a base from which to develop. I had to considerably increase the time allowed to prevent White from losing on time, and finally set it to 3 hours/player, of which White used about 2 (I used about 1). The game ended with a win by White of course, but the margin was nowhere near as great as I anticipated: I lost by 85,5 points. But most interesting to me was the fact that I learned so much more by playing against MFoG at shodan level; when it plays at 18 kyu, which is where I estimate myself to be, it makes so many apparent mistakes that no "big moves" are needed to defeat it : it can be defeated simply by small, tactical, moves. But at shodan level, these little moves just don't work. I also began to appreciate the real benefit of playing sacrifice stones at cutting points.

So, thank you once again for your analysis, and also my thanks to Magicwand & Violence for their comments, which followed your message. I now intend to play a number of unranked games against MFoG set to play at shodan level, to see just how much I can learn by playing against a much stronger opponent.

[Magicwand]

strong dan level knows exactly how safe your group is.
we do not need to re-analize (<--that is funny) on every move because we already expect opponent's attack before it happens and finished reading prior.
we do not memorize all possible shape of go. we read.

[Violence]

strong dan level knows exactly how safe your group is.
we do not need to re-analize (<--that is funny) on every move because we already expect opponent's attack before it happens and finished reading prior.
we do not memorize all possible shape of go. we read.

^What he said.




When we have a group, even if it looks solid, a lot of times, I think of the potential attacks that can happen. "If only I had this stone... if only this was here..." etc. Then as you play with that in mind, you can come up with a way to induce the conditions for a strong attack. It's a lot of reading, and some creativity.

Likewise, with my own groups, I try to think of the ways my opponent can attack them, and come up with a response in my head. Effectively, it's like bracing for a hit before it comes. You want to have the plan before the move comes. I'm sure we've all been surprised by moves before, and one of the things that hurts the most is a punch that comes from an unexpected direction.




This all reminds me of a quote Mr. Gus Price(Tabemasu) said to me as he watched me playing online.

Me: This group looks so weak... but I've never seen it before, I dunno how to attack it...

Gus: How horrible, you're going to have be creative, why would you ever want to do that at all???

I ended up losing the game.