White 8 is bad

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ethanb
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Re: White 8 is bad

Post by ethanb »

Guess it's my turn. Start of a recent game on IGS that I found interesting:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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Dusk Eagle
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Re: White 8 is bad

Post by Dusk Eagle »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . a 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Heh, the difference between having and not having those star points is quite drastic to me.

Anyway, :b1: through :w4: all seem pretty natural. After that I agree that :b5: is the biggest area, but I would have probably approached at 'a' (may be a style thing). If white attached underneath, below seems like a good result:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
White can obviously choose a different joseki, but the one above (and it's sister variation where black plays the solid connection for :b4:) are by far the most common, and black doesn't mind switching it up.

Black could also play the avalanche like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 O 4 . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I prefer the other way, but I can't say this is bad.

What I don't like is :b7:. This seems like it is asking white to separate you into two groups. Falling back with a two-space extension seems like a better move. I can't find any examples of this move in pro play (using DailyJoseki.com).

Either :w8: or attaching on the head of one of the two stones (for a leaning attack) seems best. My vague feeling says that :w8: is best, but I don't feel strong enough to accurately assess it.
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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ethanb
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Re: White 8 is bad

Post by ethanb »

Dusk Eagle wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . a 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Heh, the difference between having and not having those star points is quite drastic to me.

Anyway, :b1: through :w4: all seem pretty natural. After that I agree that :b5: is the biggest area, but I would have probably approached at 'a' (may be a style thing). If white attached underneath, below seems like a good result:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
White can obviously choose a different joseki, but the one above (and it's sister variation where black plays the solid connection for :b4:) are by far the most common, and black doesn't mind switching it up.

Black could also play the avalanche like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 O 4 . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I prefer the other way, but I can't say this is bad.

What I don't like is :b7:. This seems like it is asking white to separate you into two groups. Falling back with a two-space extension seems like a better move. I can't find any examples of this move in pro play (using DailyJoseki.com).

Either :w8: or attaching on the head of one of the two stones (for a leaning attack) seems best. My vague feeling says that :w8: is best, but I don't feel strong enough to accurately assess it.
Thanks, didn't notice the star points were missing. Guess I've got another little thing to fix in Quarry before tagging a new version for release. :)

I was white, and I agree that 8 was best, as it left miai for which stone to attack. But when I played a 3-space low pincer on top he moved out immediately. I think that was a mistake, but I think he could have done better, and maybe the sequence up to 8 isn't as horrible as it seems for black.

If I were black, I'd look at this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X 9 4 6 1 . 2 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . 3 5 7 0 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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Chew Terr
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Re: White 8 is bad

Post by Chew Terr »

I would appreciate a look at the opening of this game, if the offer's still open? It's something a bit different than my normal (Kobayashi) fuseki, and was actually my first game in a few weeks.

SGF:
[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Moves 1 to 8
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Gah, I had that diagram working a minute ago. Does anyone see what I messed up on the diagram? Mods, if you do, feel free to edit this to fix it.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Dusk Eagle
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Re: White 8 is bad

Post by Dusk Eagle »

Hmm, the problem seems to be that there is a [*go] tag in your sgf, and that is messing up the forum's parsing. I've reposted it here for now.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Moves 1 to 8
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Edit: As a workaround, you can add a [/go] tag after your sgf, and that seems to fix it. Or, you could reorder your post so the diagram comes first. I just reported this issue in the Forum/Site Suggestions and Bugs subforum.
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Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Dusk Eagle
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Re: White 8 is bad

Post by Dusk Eagle »

Anyway, regarding the opening, I don't really like :b5: personally. White can still approach the corner and :b5: isn't too effective of a pincer compared to one space closer. I would rather approach or enclose a corner for :b5:.

:w8: I think would do better as a keima. Kosumi seems a bit slow and scared here. If white's that concerned about the corner he probably shouldn't have played a 4-4 in the first place.
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Chew Terr
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Re: White 8 is bad

Post by Chew Terr »

Dusk Eagle wrote:Anyway, regarding the opening, I don't really like :b5: personally. White can still approach the corner and :b5: isn't too effective of a pincer compared to one space closer. I would rather approach or enclose a corner for :b5:.

:w8: I think would do better as a keima. Kosumi seems a bit slow and scared here. If white's that concerned about the corner he probably shouldn't have played a 4-4 in the first place.
Ack, sorry, :w8: was a keima in the game. I accidentally placed it wrong in the diagram. Yeah, the move I was most concerned with was 5, but I really WANTED to like it. =)
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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