SmartGo for iPhone - Rank/Level system query

[dungbeetle]

Hello everyone.

I'm completely new to this game and was wondering if someone here could explain something to me.

I've been looking at a couple of Go apps for the iPhone/iPod; Igowin and SmartGo.

I tried out the Igowin Tutor app (which is free) and liked the facility where you could play against the AI on a 9x9 board to get some idea of your rank. I've played a few games and I seem to be hovering around the 25-26 kyu level. That's good to know and it seems that I have plenty of room for improvement!

After reading on these forums and finding various reviews on the web, I then decided to get the SmartGo Pro app. There's lots there to keep a complete beginner like me busy, and I'm glad I got it.

This brings me to my question.

SmartGo also has the facility to play against the AI to establish your ability. The thing is, Igowin states your rank in terms of kyu, dan and pro dan, which I can understand. SmartGo however, seems to use a different method. After a few games it tells me (on auto-level) that I'm around 'Level 8'. Obviously that's not 8 kyu and I have no idea what this actually represents.

I've looked in the SmartGo options/setup menus to see if there's a way to show rank in the conventional manner, but I can't find anything.

I have also searched on the internet (including the SmartGo website), but cannot find any information on how the SmartGo levelling system works, or how it relates to the conventional ranking system.

Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

Thanks.

[shapenaji]

Unfortunately, I don't have an iPhone anymore, so everything here is from memory..

but as I remember, the top level of the bot plays at maybe 6-7 kyu? (If you give it a lot of time to think)

I think the rank maxes out at like 32... so, if that's the case, and we assume the levels are similarly distributed, then 30-6 is equivalent to 1-32.. so it would be roughly 21 kyu

[kirkmc]

Unfortunately, I don't have an iPhone anymore, so everything here is from memory..

but as I remember, the top level of the bot plays at maybe 6-7 kyu? (If you give it a lot of time to think)

I think the rank maxes out at like 32... so, if that's the case, and we assume the levels are similarly distributed, then 30-6 is equivalent to 1-32.. so it would be roughly 21 kyu

It's stronger than that. I don't play often, but when I play 9x9, I'm around level 17, and I'm a 4K KGS.

[shapenaji]

It's stronger than that. I don't play often, but when I play 9x9, I'm around level 17, and I'm a 4K KGS.

You're probably right... Ultimately though, ranks aren't really defined for 9x9 or 13x13 the way they are for 19x19... I'm not sure if there's a good conversion, the ranks are just there to try to give you a good game.

So I guess the ultimate answer is "don't trust a computer to tell you your rank unless it's a powerful mogo-esque version"

[dungbeetle]

Thanks guys.

I do appreciate that ranking by computer (especially from 9x9 and 13x13 games) is 'iffy' at the best of times, so I don't plan to take it as gospel.

I was just thinking it would be nice if (however accurate or inaccurate) SmartGo spoke to you in conventional ranking terms the way Igowin does, if only to avoid the arithmetical gymnastics!

Best solution is prolly just to play Igowin every once in a while to get some feedback.

[hyperpape]

You're probably right... Ultimately though, ranks aren't really defined for 9x9 or 13x13 the way they are for 19x19...

They might be. If it turned out that, all else being equal, ranks in 19x19 predicted who would win games on 9x9, that would define ranks on 9x9.

I've also seen suggestions for fine-grained handicapping and komi on 9x9 and 13x13 ([url="http://senseis.xmp.net/?HandicapForSmallerBoardSizes"]handicap for smaller board sizes[/url]), though I've never used them. You just have to give up the one rank = one stone model.

[dungbeetle]

I've also seen suggestions for fine-grained handicapping and komi on 9x9 and 13x13 ( http://senseis.xmp.net/?HandicapForSmallerBoardSizes ) though I've never used them. You just have to give up the one rank = one stone model.

Yes, I had a look at those earlier.

Decided to go with the 'Old Japanese Recommendation' in the end.

It's nice and simple and probably good enough for playing quick games at home with friends and family.

I doubt there'll be much difference in rank between us to begin with anyway.


p.s. Slightly off-topic I know, but I'd be interested to know which method people here think is best, as I don't see me going up to 19x19 any time soon.

[hyperpape]

If you're playing the same people repeatedly, I wouldn't worry about rank. I use some variant of the old handicap system, adjusting the handicap up and down based on past results. On 19x19, I start at even, and play until one player has a three game lead, at which point they give a one stone handicap.

If the games are particularly uneven, you might adjust the handicap faster.

[dungbeetle]

If you're playing the same people repeatedly, I wouldn't worry about rank. I use some variant of the old handicap system, adjusting the handicap up and down based on past results. On 19x19, I start at even, and play until one player has a three game lead, at which point they give a one stone handicap.

If the games are particularly uneven, you might adjust the handicap faster.

Yeah, I guess not having to bother with komi at all is even quicker and easier.

We'll prolly play three games against each other and take it from there.

If it's pretty much even, then just alternate who gets black. Three losses on the trot against the same player and the weaker player gets black plus a stone (or stones) in addition if required.

No need to be too accurate/scientific when playing for fun.

I like to use 'Keep It Simple. Stupid' methodology, whenever possible.

Thanks.

[smartgo]

There's no conversion between the levels and kyu ranks, as it depends on too many variables: Board size, the type and speed of device, the time you allow the computer per move, as well as your own experience in playing the computer. I decided to provide a simple level indication instead of a traditional ranking that would necessarily be inaccurate.

Anders Kierulf
@smartgo on Twitter

[dungbeetle]

There's no conversion between the levels and kyu ranks, as it depends on too many variables: Board size, the type and speed of device, the time you allow the computer per move, as well as your own experience in playing the computer. I decided to provide a simple level indication instead of a traditional ranking that would necessarily be inaccurate.

Anders Kierulf
@smartgo on Twitter

Anders,
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my query and congratulations on producing such an excellent app.