Punishing an off move by forcing opponent to play hamete?

Post by **Solomon** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:01 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 4 1 . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . $$ | . . 5 2 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

A funny-looking move I've been trying every once in a while (when I'm not out fighting the Zerg) is :b5:

. Seeing how it's never seen and not in the databases, it is not unreasonable to conclude that this is a bad move. However, the question I'd like to pose is: what is the best White can really do?

Claim: I think the best White can really do is force Black into playing a hamete and then playing the refutation to gain a slightly better result.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . $$ | . . X O . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Which is the same as:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . $$ | . . 4 1 b . . . . $$ | . . 6 5 . . . . . $$ | . . 7 2 a . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Here Black has several options (such as 'a' or 'b') One may consult a dictionary to find the variations after :w8:

.

But this raises the question of whether White should still go along with this if he doesn't know the hamete refutation.

Of course White also has the option to play :w1:

at

, but this only forces Black into playing joseki and I feel an opportunity disappears.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O X . . . . . $$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . $$ | . . X O . . . . . $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Which is the same as:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 4 1 . . . . . $$ | . . 5 6 . . . . . $$ | . . 7 2 . . . . . $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

If W feels there is a perhaps a stronger way to play and tries something like :w1:

:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . $$ | . . O X 4 . . . . $$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . $$ | . . X O . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

It seems up to :b4:

this result is no good for W. Any other less intuitive moves also seem to lead to similar results (this is where you guys come in to prove me wrong or agree).

So what do you think? Is the strongest way for White to handle :b3:

in the original diagram to force Black into playing the hamete? What if White doesn't know the hamete refutation? Ideally there is a simpler way to handle for White that also gives the slight advantage. Thoughts welcome.

Fredrik · Post by **Fredrik** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:25 pm

Pointless hamete is pointless :ex:

There is two options:

1: Revert back to normal joseki
2: Revert back to famous hamete, and everyone more or less knows how to punish that one.

What do you stand to gain by playing this hamete?

Post by **Solomon** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:31 pm

Fredrik wrote:Pointless hamete is pointless

There is two options:

1: Revert back to normal joseki
2: Revert back to famous hamete, and everyone more or less knows how to punish that one.

What do you stand to gain by playing this hamete?

But it's not a hamete...just a move I found on a whim and tried for fun. The question was whether there are, in fact, only two options (which I suspected was the case). I guess the question is kind of loaded since I'm already pretty sure there are only two, but regardless.

And is the hamete you're referring really that famous? I've played this quite often and definitely the far majority of the low and mid dan players I've played didn't know the refutation when they wound up in situation #2.

Fredrik · Post by **Fredrik** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:39 pm

Araban wrote:
But it's not a hamete...just a move I found on a whim and tried for fun. The question was whether there are, in fact, only two options (which I suspected was the case). I guess the question is kind of loaded since I'm already pretty sure there are only two, but regardless.

And is the hamete you're referring really that famous? I've played this quite often and definitely the far majority of the low and mid dan players I've played didn't know the refutation when they wound up in situation #2.

I think we can call it a hamete, as your opponent can easily make into one

About it being famous, I thought so at least.. Perhaps you know this better than me

Well, I do not see any other good variation.

I tried to illustrate with a few diagrams, but how do I add more than 10 moves in the diagram? I figured that writing a 0 means 10, but writing 11 does not work =P

amnal · Post by **amnal** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:44 pm

Fredrik wrote:Pointless hamete is pointless

There is two options:

1: Revert back to normal joseki
2: Revert back to famous hamete, and everyone more or less knows how to punish that one.

What do you stand to gain by playing this hamete?

Whilst I know the hamete variation, I didn't know it was considered a hamete - it seems okay for both to me. Checking the database, it has happened in several, but not very many, pro games.

I'm inclined to think that this is the class of hamete that are important only on a level significantly higher than my own, even if I can read and understand the reason they are bad. I generally assume that if an opening move has occurred in a professional game, even just once, it's sure to be fine for me - even if every other pro in the world then came together to pronounce it a mistake

. Obviously it's important to not have a closed mind, and I would always try to understand where I am wrong, but...sometimes there are more important things

. And even it's only good in a specific situation, that makes Araban's suggestion also an interesting idea for that situation.

I think I haven't ever really thought about Araban's move. If I have, I'm sure I came to the same conclusions that he has. It seems like an interesting question to ask white, maybe I will try it.

Edit: As to whether it's famous, I don't know whether it's that well known, becuase I see it so rarely.

Post by **Solomon** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:57 pm

Fredrik wrote:
Araban wrote:
But it's not a hamete...just a move I found on a whim and tried for fun. The question was whether there are, in fact, only two options (which I suspected was the case). I guess the question is kind of loaded since I'm already pretty sure there are only two, but regardless.

And is the hamete you're referring really that famous? I've played this quite often and definitely the far majority of the low and mid dan players I've played didn't know the refutation when they wound up in situation #2.

I think we can call it a hamete, as your opponent can easily make into one About it being famous, I thought so at least.. Perhaps you know this better than me

Well, I do not see any other good variation.

I tried to illustrate with a few diagrams, but how do I add more than 10 moves in the diagram? I figured that writing a 0 means 10, but writing 11 does not work =P

I guess...I just feel that, because the opponent rather than yourself can execute the hamete, that the original move can't really be considered one; at least, it feels out of place when I look at other hamete and compare.

And, afaik, you can't add 10 moves in a diagram; rather you have to break it down into multiple diagrams (or if there's an awful lot of moves, just upload an SGF).

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