European Professional Go League

[nagano]

@gaius It was intended to be tongue-in-cheek. I have studied economic and political theory and, yes, I do not agree with the Communist system. My disagreement is not based upon fear but rational study. It was an offhand remark, and I did not intend to offend anyone, or to violate the TOS. Please do not try to make an issue here where there need be none. I do not wish to discuss the topic further.

[willemien]

any news on the European Professional Go League
the website http://eurogopro.org/ still finds news from 2010 6th August breaking news.

It looks like it has died young

[nagano]

It certainly seems that way. My first thought was to PM breakfast about it, but it seems that he hasn't been around in months.

[breakfast]

Recent news from Kim Sungrae, 8p (Insei League teacher and my friend), who suggested to start European Pro League during the last AGM on EGC-2010. He was even faster than Harry from EuroGoTV:

"I suggested the three steps and these were passed by the professional board meeting.

The first step is making 12 European professional players by KBA. They can participate in Professional tournament in Korea.

The second step is making the European Professional Go Association in 2012.

The third step is finding the sponsors and making professional tournaments. "

Not sure if Kim-sabbonim has some sponsors in mind, but anyway it's good that this idea is supported by Korean Baduk Association.

Will post more news on this subject soon

[gaius]

Wow, European pros playing in Korean pro-tournaments sounds like an excellent idea! This kind of league would add so much recognition to go in Europe - let's hope it all works out .

[RobertJasiek]

IIUC, the league creates playing professionals dynamically and therefore partially temporarily. There are also amateur or pro ranked teaching professionals other than the playing professionals. Therefore it is not obvious for whom a European Professional Go Association might be formed. The simplest and most peaceful model would be to make it open for everybody with at least some semi- or fully professional go activity. A stranger model would throw out all players not currently being in the league.

[VincentV]

Frankly, the idea to create a Pro league in Europe is something I fully support, but seeing what the concept behind it is, I just don't think it works. If I understand this right, the top 12 European players (I assume there will be some kind of tournament to determine those) get to enter the Pro league for a year. Then after that period of time the weakest get kicked out and replaced by other strong players so that the number of pros constantly remains at 12.

This reminds me of the insei-leagues they have in Asia. Where the top of a league rises one above while the weakest one descends to the one below. But I don't really see the point in this? Why would you make someone a Pro when he might lose the status a year later? Wouldn't regular ranks be sufficient then? Having European Titles (similar to Japans Tengen, Meijin or Honinbo) seems way more appealing. For one the players can earn quite a lot of money by obtaining a title but also the tournaments would feature most of the strong European Go players. Of course in this case it would be possible for one player to gain all available titles, but I can't really think of a player that would be strong enough to do so. Wouldn't you agree?

[gaius]

^ VincentV, we already have a big title: the European Championship. I don't think there is enough sponsorship to make a second title with a very big prize fund, and I don't think it is reasonable to expect all the top players to participate in a tournament without a huge prize fund. For example, even an international tournament like the Kido Cup in Hamburg (with quite some prize money) only attracts a fraction of the European top players.

The "pro league" will be separated from these international tournaments, and it will have quite some extra appeal if the top European "pros" get to play in Korean professional tournaments. If they get it working, I think it's a very interesting idea!

[VincentV]

^ VincentV, we already have a big title: the European Championship. I don't think there is enough sponsorship to make a second title with a very big prize fund, and I don't think it is reasonable to expect all the top players to participate in a tournament without a huge prize fund. For example, even an international tournament like the Kido Cup in Hamburg (with quite some prize money) only attracts a fraction of the European top players.

The "pro league" will be separated from these international tournaments, and it will have quite some extra appeal if the top European "pros" get to play in Korean professional tournaments. If they get it working, I think it's a very interesting idea!

I agree with you saying that there (currently) probably isn't enough sponsorship to create a second title with a similar amount of prize money. And I definately think that having a Pro league would be great, but wouldn't it be even more complicated to get those European Pros to Korea to play at the tournaments there?

Imagine having twelve football (or soccer) players being elevated to "pro status" for a year and having them play in some major tournaments within that time (despite being on a much lower level), but not actually training with the "regular pros". It just doesn't make much sense to me. I mean sure, it is a great experience for them to be able to participate at those events, but ultimately it doesn't elevate the level of football in Europe. As for the current concept I think the effect would be similar.

Frankly, I find the idea of an Insei-League (or Go school) with Pros teaching there, more appealing than a Pro league with the current European top players.

[freegame]

The first step is making 12 European professional players by KBA. They can participate in Professional tournament in Korea.

Wow, European pros playing in Korean pro-tournaments sounds like an excellent idea! This kind of league would add so much recognition to go in Europe - let's hope it all works out .

`

Would most of them not end up last over and over again...? I don't think we have 12 European Go players that can compete (and I mean really compete, not just participate) in the Korean Pro league.

I do like the idea of an European Professional Go Association in 2012. One recognized and respected by other Pro Go Associations. maybe with invitational games every now and then. This should make it possible for some people to devote more serious time to the game, to get even stronger, hopefully closing the gab to Asia.

[willemien]

Recent news from Kim Sungrae, 8p (Insei League teacher and my friend), who suggested to start European Pro League during the last AGM on EGC-2010. He was even faster than Harry from EuroGoTV:

"I suggested the three steps and these were passed by the professional board meeting.

The first step is making 12 European professional players by KBA. They can participate in Professional tournament in Korea.

The second step is making the European Professional Go Association in 2012.

The third step is finding the sponsors and making professional tournaments. "

Not sure if Kim-sabbonim has some sponsors in mind, but anyway it's good that this idea is supported by Korean Baduk Association.

Will post more news on this subject soon

It is a bit confusing now

Is there allready an European Professional Go Association or will it be made in 2012?
or if it wasn't made yet who are in "professional board meeting"

For me it doesn't make any difference i will not be strong enough to join anyway.

But for the rest I like the idea, it looks like it will not influence the sponsorship in Europe but this organisation will creates its own sponsorship links with Korea. (Korea will need the sponsor the players to come to Korea and play Koreans)

(but i am not sure how much sponsorship money go in europe comes from Korea at the moment)

[C. Blue]

It has repetetively been planned out and/or attempted to elevate the presence of Go in our western world, which usually fails on the surface to the aspect of not enough money being available to do anything great.
This is of course natural for something that is just in the beginnings, and has yet to grow and prosper. However, sometimes I'm wondering if the steps taken by those who could move a lot, ie the strong Go players and those that are already heavily involved such as in charge of organisations and big tournaments, could become more effective and satisfactory than they currently are:
In particular it feels like press coverage is lacking a lot. Most steps often suggested like forming this or building that, which are based on SPONSORSHIP of any kind (and even the things that could maybe be just covered by member fees instead) should really not forego the actual acquirement of public awareness.
To my limited knowledge the amount of materials and connections available for raising public interest or even just a low awareness of the game of Go is currently lacking. In case I'm not off by far here I'd suggest that a much larger focus is being put on the matter of getting much much more publicity.
Regarding the construction of an Euro-Pro league or association of any kind, I could imagine that it could go hand in hand with work on getting increasing publicity, since this kind of dual process might create beneficial synergies, but I'm by no means an expert in that field, just thinking out loud. I am well aware that this would probably demand a great lot of effort.

Further, the concerns raised by Mr Jasiek in particular about how the list of Euro-Pro participants was conceived or forged seem sort of valid. As someone else stated how they were just moving things forward and it was fine like this, I have to disagree to the following extent:
Certainly the visionary act and effort put into this is fine, and even the act of "just choosing some who happened to be at the right time and place" could be ok if everyone of those takes up the according responsibility and work. However, I believe that more openness is required: Those involved should display and explain their steps in detail, and why they chose to do it in the way they did. Whether I would possibly like or dislike this explanation is of secondary importance to me, the primary thing is that the whole process is not executed inside a black box obscured from observers. I think these means of openness that can be followed by everyone are important in order to guarantee that the principles for the future Euro-Pro association are not built on swamp, but on solid ground instead.

[tapir]

We can declare this project dead for all practical purposes. They even let the domain expire already.

[ekozak]

I see two possibilities to make this dream come true:
God will give us a big sponsor and we will be able to make this project;
We will look at this from economic site - we will sell the product "EuroGoPro League".

# But who will buy this?
I suppose that mostly go fans and players, mostly from Europe.

# And in which form?
Maybe some kind of selling lessons and commentary. Create EGP (Euro Go Pro) School.
Something similar to A.D. http://insei-league.com/

[Krama]

How can these Euro pros get higher titles(ranks) like 3p or 9p?