77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:37 am

topazg wrote:@Robinz

Are you sure that G10 makes a guaranteed Black eye?

Actually, this isn't an open Malkovich, so I've hidden the juicy stuff for later below

robinz wrote:After the last exchange, there is a potential eye around G10. If black plays at G10 next then there is certainly one (E10 and G8 being miai). But if I get the move I think I can prevent one there, if I have to, by pushing in at either E10 or G8.

An eye is only "real" in normal cases if the opponent can make all 4 horizontal and vertical points and 3 of the 4 diagonal points around a single point occupied by his stone. If Black plays G10, then he needs E10 and either G11 or G9 to make F10 real. Therefore, you must play E10 to interfere, as he has miai of the other two. However, after you have played E10 he needs both F10 and G8 to make G9 real, which means you can play the one he doesn't. In short, there's no eye there even if Black gets G10 now (see below)

$$Wcm110 robinz vs DIV - Move 110; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . X O . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O 1 O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O 3 5 2 X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | X O . X . O 4 X O O . . O O . . O . . |
$$ | . O O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | X X O . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm110 robinz vs DIV - Move 110; prisoners: Black 0 White 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . | $$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X . O . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | O X O . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . X O . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O 1 O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X X . . . . . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O 3 5 2 X . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X . . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . | $$ | X O . X . O 4 X O O . . O O . . O . . | $$ | . O O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | X X O . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

DIV · Post by **DIV** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:50 pm

Sorry about the delay robinz, i have had no internet for days now. Hope all is well.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm111 robinz vs DIV - Move 110; prisoners: Black 0 White 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . | $$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X . O . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | O X O . . . . X 1 . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . X O . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X X . . . . . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X . . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . | $$ | X O . X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . | $$ | . O O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | X X O . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Ok, this is what I imagine the final board will look like if I don't resign first.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm110 robinz vs DIV - Move 110; prisoners: Black 0 White 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | X O O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O . O X X O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O X X X X . . X . . X . . . . | $$ | X . X O O O X . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | X X X O X X X . O . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | O X O O O X . X X X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | O O O . . O X X O O X X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O O O O . O O X X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X X . . . . O O X O X X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . X . O X X X O O , X X . | $$ | . X . . X X . X . . O O X X O O X . . | $$ | X O . X . O . X O O O O O O O O O X X | $$ | . O O X O . O O . O X X X X O X O O O | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . O X O O O X X O O | $$ | X X O . X X X X . . O X O X X X . X O | $$ | . O O O O O X O X , O X X X O X . X O | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O O X X . X | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So without a miracle I cannot win this, hahaha. But I'll play a few more moves.

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:33 am

No problems with the delay - I hope things are better now

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm112 robinz vs DIV - Move 112; prisoners: Black 0 White 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O . O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . | $$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X . O . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | O X O . . . . X X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . X O . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X X . . . . . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X . . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . | $$ | X O . X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . | $$ | . O O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | X X O . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

OK, back to other endgame issues for now - although I wouldn't be surprised if DIV returns to the life-and-death struggle at some point in the future. This is the move I've been expecting for a while, and it's big - probably cutting off those 2 stones and ensuring their death. It's time for me to strike back against his territory on the top - and perhaps even be able to use the aji of those two stones.

Options I considered and rejected:
a) This attachment was tempting, but I don't know why - it doesn't seem to do a lot for me other than throw 2 stones away in a sequence such as this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc robinz vs DIV - Move 112; prisoners: Black 0 White 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O . O . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . X 1 3 X . . X . . X . . . . | $$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X . O . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | O X O . . . . X X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . X O . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X X . . . . . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X . . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . | $$ | X O . X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . | $$ | . O O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | X X O . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

- there are other options for white 3 here, of course, but none that seem to work.

b) The monkey jump - it's big, but black's J17 stone is annoyingly placed to stop it from being sente:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc robinz vs DIV - Move 112; prisoners: Black 0 White 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . O . . 3 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X O . O 5 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . | $$ | X . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X . O . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | O X O . . . . X X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . X O . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X X . . . . . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X . . X X . X . . . . X . . O X . . | $$ | X O . X . O . X O O . . O O . . O . . | $$ | . O O X O . O O . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | X X O . X X X X . . O . . X . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O X O X , . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . . O O X O . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

and now black can tenuki.

So I need something else. This move looks better to me than the above. It threatens a far more damaging (and I think sente) monkey jump to K19 (amongst other options, no doubt). And if black defends this I can push to G17, and either eat up black's F17 stone or connect out to my J15 one. This all looks rather good to me, being both big and leaving rather nice options open for later in most cases

DIV · Post by **DIV** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:45 pm

Turns out access isn't easier, and I think it's about that time for me. I have to resign at this point. Thanks for the game robinz. I am excited to read commentary if I can find the time.

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:49 pm

DIV wrote:Turns out access isn't easier, and I think it's about that time for me. I have to resign at this point. Thanks for the game robinz. I am excited to read commentary if I can find the time.

OK - sorry about your lack of access (I agree that I am winning and your resignation looks reasonable to me, but I'll be very interested to see what all the strong players were talking about a few moves ago, and now I'll get to see

). Thanks very much for the game, it was fun

I'll now want to read all the comments, but before doing so, my initial impression of the game was that I played a pretty poor opening (I think I needed to invade the right a lot earlier than I did, for one thing), and wasn't confident at all about making enough points from my position in the centre. I think the game turned when you tenukied a couple of times while I attacked your lower-left group, letting me kill it (or at least I thought I had, and it seems now that you thought so too - time to see what the dan players thought though ;-)

)

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:28 am

I've now managed to read all the comments made throughout the game, and reflect on them. May I thank everyone who took the time to make detailed comments - most notably topazg, gaius, Laman and Redundant, but all the rest of you too

It was even nice to see that, at least at a few points, you were reading the same sequences as me without deciding I was terribly wrong (although, as Redundant pointed out, I was being worried over nothing when I opted not to play for the kill in the upper-left).

I notice there seems to have been unanimous consent among the observers that I shouldn't have been trying to attack that large lower-left group which eventually died - presumably because it had plenty of space to run away into and make eyes with. I admit that, at that stage of the game, I never expected to kill it, but to me it seemed like the most attackable black group on the board, and I thought I could manage to build a useful position in the centre while doing so. (Well, I'm sure I wouldn't have managed, but I wanted to try ;-)

) So, I ask those observers who criticised my play there two questions:
1) Why do you think it shouldn't have been possible for me to make any profit from attacking that group? And, in general, how do you decide which of your opponent's unsettled groups you can profitably attack and which you can't? (I realise the latter is probably a rather big question - I'm only after a few thoughts, or perhaps suggestions for further reading, rather than detailed replies with dozens of diagrams.)
2) What should I have done instead at that point? I see a few people were saying that I should have done things in the lower-right - and I agree that, if I could have played R2 in sente (which it seems I could, although with my reading I couldn't see a way to kill if black tenukied) that would have been a good move, but that's just playing a useful move in sente, not having a plan for what I'm trying to achieve overall in the next few moves. So what should I have been trying to do in that position, on a medium-to-long-term scale?

Thanks in advance

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:59 am

robinz wrote:1) Why do you think it shouldn't have been possible for me to make any profit from attacking that group? And, in general, how do you decide which of your opponent's unsettled groups you can profitably attack and which you can't? (I realise the latter is probably a rather big question - I'm only after a few thoughts, or perhaps suggestions for further reading, rather than detailed replies with dozens of diagrams.)
2) What should I have done instead at that point? I see a few people were saying that I should have done things in the lower-right - and I agree that, if I could have played R2 in sente (which it seems I could, although with my reading I couldn't see a way to kill if black tenukied) that would have been a good move, but that's just playing a useful move in sente, not having a plan for what I'm trying to achieve overall in the next few moves. So what should I have been trying to do in that position, on a medium-to-long-term scale?

Thanks in advance

Hiya, can you pick a specific move position - obviously there was a point when attacking that group was 100% the right thing to do, so it depends at what point you felt that people were recommending against it, and I'll at least try to share my thoughts

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:16 am

Having just looked back to try to find the specific point where everyone was criticising my play, it seems to have been spread out over a relatively large range of moves - which I guess means that my play must have been poor over quite a long period (no real surprise there ;-)

).

One specific comment I have in mind are Joaz's after move 54 that we had both "lost our sense of direction" and should have been concentrating on the lower-right (he gave a sequence, but, as I said, that just seems to be a case of settling my own group in sente - not that that wouldn't have been a great thing to do, but it does beg the question of "OK, that's nice, but what next"?).

And the most damning-sounding comment (no criticism intended there, by the way - I played this game knowing that my play would attract criticism

) was from schilds after move 66: "White's plan seems to be based on the assumption that black has the weaker group.". That seems to imply that I had a group in the area that was weaker than black's, but I'm having trouble seeing to which group he was referring - my bottom left was completely rock-solid, and at that stage I was pretty sure the left could look after itself even though I would have to respond to some black moves in the area. Or was he referring to my group on the right, implying that I would need to strengthen that before looking to make gains elsewhere? This I think is probably his most likely meaning, but I'm too weak to really know.

So any comment on what I should have been doing instead, at any point in that sequence around move 60 (roughly) where you think I went badly astray (and presumably would have been punished for it if black had responded correctly) would be nice

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:32 am

My comment about the middle was that there were lots of weak groups everywhere I guess. On move 60, I would have played R2 in sente (because it's useful and Black can't ignore - it's not tiny either), B13 in sente, and then connected under at B6. Playing inside moves to kill is great if they 100% kill, and almost always bad if they don't. I mean, fast forward a bit, and if that group's not dead it's waltzed into the middle, and you've effectively given him free prisoners. It would be more globally sensible IMHO to play moves around G9, forcing Black to make yucky inside eyes, and then focus on swallowing L13 in a big way.

As it happens, you killed, which is great, but I think a bit too much rested on the kill and DIV's desire to tenuki too much.

I think B13 was big enough to play straight away after the sequence in the top left, as it allows White to build a huge left side framework that's comparatively thick.

RE: 66, when you connect out and give Black outside thickness after 68 (in gote, no less), you better kill! If not, you've played 4 stones on dame points that at the very most deprived Black of 4 points or so of territory - 1 point per move in gote is very very late endgame

schilds · Post by **schilds** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:52 am

I was primarily referring to the group you were creating as you were stealing his eye space. My feeling is/was that it was premature to play inside stones that black could chase (even if only for a couple of moves) while he gets more useful stones facing top/right. Having extra black stones in the middle would then make your other stones/groups within/near his influence a second set of targets.

DIV · Post by **DIV** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:48 pm

after reading through the comments, i feel better about this game. robinz is now around 9k, I am probably not still 12k, am probably 13k+. I felt strong and confident in the beginning of this game and did well in a lot of respects. Around the time of my lower left group is when I was getting a lot worse and robinz a lot better, i think. And I just could not manage playing as well as he after his attack on that began.

Either way, I had fun and reading these comments makes me want to play more. I should quit my job, that sounds like the smart idea, haha. Thanks again, robinz.

Also thanks to all the commentators, laman, topaz, and more. It's much appreciated.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:23 pm

robinz wrote:1) And, in general, how do you decide which of your opponent's unsettled groups you can profitably attack and which you can't?

No general answer. This only comes with years of experience, study, and guidance from good teachers.

Laman · Post by **Laman** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:53 am

robinz wrote:1) Why do you think it shouldn't have been possible for me to make any profit from attacking that group? And, in general, how do you decide which of your opponent's unsettled groups you can profitably attack and which you can't? (I realise the latter is probably a rather big question - I'm only after a few thoughts, or perhaps suggestions for further reading, rather than detailed replies with dozens of diagrams.)

there are two approaches to evaluating such things:

a) believe your feeling and cultivate your instincts to give the right answers. i think this is the best working solution, but unfortunately it is not an useful advise how to get stronger

b) you can ask yourself following questions and the answers should help you make the decision: what can i gain from the attack? what are my chances of success? how much do i lose if the attack fail (or how much do i have to bet to make the attack work)?

the latter two questions are connected, because you can choose in this - by playing most severely you increase your chances and at the same time also raise your bets of possible self-damage

i guess that against your actual attack would spek low chance of gaining anything useful (or anything worth your effort) - note that DIV had to help you by boldly playing tenuki several times

c) attack anyway (not really serious, not really joking)

robinz wrote:2) What should I have done instead at that point? I see a few people were saying that I should have done things in the lower-right - and I agree that, if I could have played R2 in sente (which it seems I could, although with my reading I couldn't see a way to kill if black tenukied) that would have been a good move, but that's just playing a useful move in sente, not having a plan for what I'm trying to achieve overall in the next few moves. So what should I have been trying to do in that position, on a medium-to-long-term scale?

first there is this well known base stealing tesuji in the lower right corner (for more details check for example senseis):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Diagram 1 - Move 58 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . x . B . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X 5 . | $$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O O X O . , . . . . . X . 3 . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . O . . X 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O 1 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

or you could have tried to dance around the marked center stone a little - it is still an important unsettled area - and eventually getting more stones there to support your later attack at the big black group

Life In 19x19

77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]