92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Marcus
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by Marcus »

emerus wrote:
I can't believe that he's playing so many gote endgame sized moves. o.O


To emerus:
Have you tried counting the board at all? I'm curious to know what you think of the current board position. Given your statement above, where do you think White is going wrong with his latest handful of moves? What would you do different?


To observers:
While I'm not so keen on the invasion White played, I think the salvage wasn't all that bad, giving influence and threatening to cut off 14 or so more points up top. That's not small at all, if White swallows those stones.

Blacks comments seem to me to give the impression that he's not quite aware of how BIG White's upper left really is.

Don't get me wrong, I think that White has some work to do ... I just think Black is underestimating White's profit so far.
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by emerus »

Marcus wrote:
To emerus:
Have you tried counting the board at all? I'm curious to know what you think of the current board position. Given your statement above, where do you think White is going wrong with his latest handful of moves? What would you do different?




Woops, idk how you quote things without seeing both hidden comments. My bad.... Red should be able to read that since I took an accidental glance.

No I don't really count. I'm not even sure the rules on captured stones yet. o.o

The board looks much better for black so I feel that I've retained my two stone advantage. White has gone terribly wrong with this invasion (although my p15 was a nasty shape mistake worth about 15 points), his entire sequence was a negative. Also his d14 move earlier was quite small for that stage in the game. If I'm a off in my judgment of a two stone game, it can't be by much and black is still ahead.

If I were to put numbers out by eyeballing I'd guess white has 40 points in the corner with a 18 point gote follow up at l19.
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by Marcus »

emerus wrote:Woops, idk how you quote things without seeing both hidden comments. My bad.... Red should be able to read that since I took an accidental glance.

Not to worry, I did not talk about future moves, just my own feel of the current position. :)
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by Redundant »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-2 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X O X . X O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X O X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , O O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . O O . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My group will be fine. I'm taking this point, because him playing in this corner would make a really nice formation.
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by topazg »

Marcus wrote:To observers:
While I'm not so keen on the invasion White played, I think the salvage wasn't all that bad, giving influence and threatening to cut off 14 or so more points up top. That's not small at all, if White swallows those stones.

Blacks comments seem to me to give the impression that he's not quite aware of how BIG White's upper left really is.

Don't get me wrong, I think that White has some work to do ... I just think Black is underestimating White's profit so far.


I think he's underestimating White's profit too, but I also think the top right was a White disaster. None of that thickness / influence he's got is that useful, and there's still huge local aji left around the M14 cut. White's given Black a big corner, and done nothing to prevent the framework on the right. What's more, his latest invasion can be treated as gote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-2 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X O X . X O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X O X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , O O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . O O . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X 3 . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . W 2 . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This looks hard for White to me.
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by emerus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-2 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X O X . X O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X O X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , O O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . O O . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-2 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X O X . X O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X O X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , O O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . O O . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O 2 . 3 . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After this, I'm trying to decide the best way to extend from both sides on the right. It's a bit of an awkward distance so I will have to decide which side I will allow white to invade and how I can maybe create two weak groups with p4 if he does try an immediate invasion. Will post thoughts later.
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by Redundant »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-2 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X O X . X O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X O X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , O O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . O O . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O W . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


You're free to offer a trigger here.
I really hope he plays out the usual joseki, then I can reduce his left greatly. If he takes sente here, I'll locally be better, but globally not as great (but not bad).
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by emerus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-2 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X O X . X O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X O X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , O O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . O O . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O O . 1 . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by Redundant »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-2 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X O X . X O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X O X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , O O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . O O . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O O . X . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

He's taking sente ... I wonder what he'll do with his sente.
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by yoyoma »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-2 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X O X . X O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X O X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , O O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . O O . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I would rather close the corner with for example b, instead of jumping to center with a. I choose b because it makes it very hard for white to do anything at all on the left side now. Also since the wall up there is so solid there is no need to make a small knights move, so this one protects the corner more.

As for the right side, it seems hard for any one move by black or white to do much. Black can't really close the entire side in one move, especially with white influence nearby. Extending from the 3 stones in the corner could be ok if you consider it to have enough of a power swing compared to white moving the group next to it first. Overall I think the lower left is bigger for now.
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by emerus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-2 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X O X . X O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X O X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , O O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . O O . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O O . X B . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


No real comment. Initially I wanted to take sente now but I think that I'll still end up with it.

I have sorta put this game on the shelf for a moment. Maybe will give a move a week until I finish moving at the end of the month.
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by Redundant »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-2 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X O X . X O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X O X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , O O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . O O . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . 3 O O . X X . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


You ok with this?
emerus
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by emerus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-2 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X O X . X O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X O X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , O O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . O O . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X X 4 . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . 3 O O . X X . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-2 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X O X . X O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X O X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , O O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . O O . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X B . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O O . X X . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ | . b a d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | c X e . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X 1 . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O O . X X . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . 4 3 O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

B seems to have taken gote for some thickness, as 2 seems possible. I think F10 is quite a bit better than 2. Not having a move at a is also a little annoying for black because white has bcde sort of aji (or just normal yose at c).
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Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Post by Redundant »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-2 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X O X . X O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X O X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , O O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . O O . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O O . X X . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . W O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm going to be a little flaky in getting moves out quickly; my life is currently a montage of problem sets.
Can't let him get the turn in sente.

He was nice enough to leave me B6 aji. The left is not near territory. Either he leaves me the aji to invade, or gives me the tempo to reduce.
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