You make that move and don't comment? I'm grumbling sooooo hard over here.
In all seriousness, I'm really interested to see the response. This is the kind of move that utterly dumbfounds me. I think that's not just a blindspot, and maybe other players around my rank would have the same issue.
I'm sure Topazg will have some interesting thoughts.
In all seriousness, I'm really interested to see the response. This is the kind of move that utterly dumbfounds me. I think that's not just a blindspot, and maybe other players around my rank would have the same issue.
I'm sure Topazg will have some interesting thoughts.
What do you think about this?
I won't say I understand it completely, but I will try to guess at it/ start it off. I think these types of moves are the best. I believe this is close to the correct idea. They are aiming for the aji at a, b , and c.
$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . c . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . a . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . 0 . X . . b . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . c . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . a . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . 0 . X . . b . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
In the long run, black will have to make a choice on what he wants white to do. Either ways he picks, it should let white live, while hurting one of his own groups. The most interesting(my opinion) way to play here is probably the most aggressive way. I think without reading myself, I'd expect to see l3, or j3. Possibly something like this:
$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X 3 . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . 1 . O . X . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
Magicwand looked at a line of a very normal move already; see his 'ladder breaker' post. If topazg chooses to try a large=scale kill on the stone, precisely what he chooses will lead to peculiar variations - as ketchup is indirectly pointing out.
My understanding is that insisting that this stone be dead gives Magicwand lots of forcing moves and/or aji. Playing in the middle of a three space extension is a common shape in circumstances various.
-Two bits from a two kyu.
Magicwand;
You've just counted, eh. I always have trouble counting meaningfully in this sort of early-middle-game. Could you critique my count (in my next hidden section)?
$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . a a a . . . . . . . a a . . . . . . | $$ | . . a a . . . . . . . a a a O O X . . | $$ | . . O a a . . . X O . . O O X X b b b | $$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , b b b | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . | $$ | b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | b b X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | b b X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O a a a | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X a a | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . a a a | $$ | a a O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | a a . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | a a . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | a a O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+
[go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . a a a . . . . . . . a a . . . . . . | $$ | . . a a . . . . . . . a a a O O X . . | $$ | . . O a a . . . X O . . O O X X b b b | $$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , b b b | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . | $$ | b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | b b X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | b b X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O a a a | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X a a | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . a a a | $$ | a a O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | a a . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | a a . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | a a O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
White has about 30 points cash to black about 12. Black's moyo on the bottom is worth about 25 points uninvaded (not counting r3 area).
Last edited by Loons on Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This is a normal invasion, but how it will play out seems very unpredictable to my mind. So I'm looking for ideas about which variations MW expects/hopes for/fears.
Thanks for noting that MW already talked about the ladder, but that just says one variation won't work. What will happen?
[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O b . | $$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . # . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . # . . 2 . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . # . . . . . 1 . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . # . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------- $${AR S4 O4 }[/go]
MW has invaded his biggest territory, so Topazg has to fight. The left side is stronger, so Topazg should be pushing white from the east, westward toward his strength. A nice side benefit from this is that when black gets solid in the lower right, moves like 'a' and 'b' begin to haunt white.
To draw a parallel to the actual game, note how big the bottom area seems for Black (both in this example and in the actual game). This is one of the advantages to playing Classic Kobayashi opening as Black at SDK levels ... the bottom area feels very hard to invade, and if White is too timid it becomes extremely solid.
Once you've spent some time playing the opening and playing against it as well, you find that the critical points at a and b are really hard to handle.
At one point in time I was experimenting with Kobayashi as Black almost exclusively in my games. Because of the exposure, I learned a lot about how to attack and defend moyo areas like this. If you have a way to search game records, look for patterns where White makes an invasion at a or b (and I've sometimes seen reductions using moves at c or d after the bottom gets a bit more solid).
i didnt say much about my invasion before so i will now. on the board..it is very hard to predict who is ahead..( i think i am ahead few points but i might be wrong ) i tried to find simpliest way to win without any complication.
his answer "a" i already explained. if he answer 'b' i think i will escape too easy. if he answer 'c' which is strongest move he can answer, it is complicated but i think i will be ok. (i will worry about next move after he plays it)
$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . a c . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . b . 0 . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . a c . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . b . 0 . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
loon: your counting is very good and close to mine. but at this stage it is never accurate and meaningless. i think i am thicker in the middle so i am ahead. his territory is all set and have no room for development. (only shrinkage) but my middle have room for big development.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown" Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O b . | $$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . # . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . # . . 2 . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . # . . . . . 1 . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . # . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------- $${AR S4 O4 }[/go]
MW has invaded his biggest territory, so Topazg has to fight. The left side is stronger, so Topazg should be pushing white from the east, westward toward his strength. A nice side benefit from this is that when black gets solid in the lower right, moves like 'a' and 'b' begin to haunt white.
Joaz/observers:
The idea of fighting on your strong side is debatable here. As I see it, neither of the two groups are strong, but I do agree that there's a definite strength to push to the left side. For example, just as a stone advantage, it's 4v2. The problem I have is that MW can play this pretty lightly. As I see it, the moves you've pointed out still do not fix the inherent shape issues that exist. I think it's really easy to leave this stone alone, and just hit the other weaknesses. The issue I have is that I feel both a and b are still available with the moves you recommend. What I'm aiming for with a move at k3(sorry i accidentally said j3 before), is the direct fix to a, and the indirect fix to c. Can you clarify a bit more about why a move at n4 is more superior in terms of the overall game?
$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . c . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . a . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . O . X . . b . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . c . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . a . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . O . X . . b . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
-edit-
Noticing magicwand's comment above as well, he seems to feel the same as Joaz, but I'm not too sure I understand why. He does not really mention anything in addition to it. I'm going to assume it's more of a feel thing for him then. Does anyone have any ideas?
IMO, N4 is more severe against white than K3. K3 definitely fixes shape weaknesses, but it also lets white off easy in that not much immediate pressure is put on his stone. I cannot say that N4 is definitely better than K3, but I would be more apt to play N4 than K3 since K3 seems so passive.
