Big Brother Malkovich #2

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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Phelan wrote:From the first post: "Each team starts with a counter of 10 total changes, and after every five consecutive moves without a change this counter will increment by one." :sad:


I think we get to be incremented to 7. The last move I changed was #21; Aphelion played 23, 25, 27, 29, and 31 with no help from me.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=6, W=2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O 3 X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 7 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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daniel_the_smith
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Approved.

There, I knew I'd get a move I could live with. :)
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Aphelion »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33 Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7 - 0 , W=2 - 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Incremented corrections for Black, added turns without correction after (if Joaz approves it will be the first one).
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Phelan »

I'm undecided between M4 and P8, but M4 is more likely to happen as I'm not sure if I know the pattern that follows P8 well enough.

P8 would be to try and use the aji of the lost stones further up, but I'm not sure if it's better to play elsewhere and save it for later when we're stronger.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Another honte move. I approve.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Phelan »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm34 Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7 - 1 , W=2 - 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . W . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This white group is still weak, having no eyes and no base. In those cases you either make a base for it, or run it towards the middle. Usually it's better to get a base first, but in this case I think running works well with the stones we have, and still leaves a possibility for invading the corner/side later.

This comes at the expense of making black's south side stronger, and giving them almost territory, but I think it's worth it.
I expect:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm34 Response 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . W . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Or this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm34 Response 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , 5 W 2 . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Approved.

It's realllllly good Phelan picked this move and not the other one he was thinking about (P8)!

I don't know if I would play this but it doesn't seem like there's anything wrong with it.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Aphelion »

I think this is an overplay. I obviously can't let white enclose me like this and need to exploit the cut in the keima in some fashion. The only question is if I should do so directly or play some preparatory moves first.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Redundant »

This doesn't look too bad to me (locally), but it seems very willing to fight, and black is definitely the better fighter.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Aphelion »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35 Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7 - 1 , W=2 - 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . B O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not 100% sure this is the right move. However, it suits my style, and all other moves seem to concede too much. IMO White should have played there 1 point jump, and whereas directly cutting the keima may not always be best idea, I couldn't think of any indirect ways to profit from the weakness of that connection.

Here's some of my reading:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Clearly fails for White
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 1 O 5 O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O 2 3 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 White cannot fix both 'a' and 'b'
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 b . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 1 O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , a O 2 3 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , 6 O 2 3 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Things really branch out if White plays 6, but with Black having 1 weak group and White taking care of two, I think we'll be fine. Q7 can be treated light, I just need to be careful of the aji of o14 if this fight expands.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Aphelion wrote:
I think this is an overplay. I obviously can't let white enclose me like this and need to exploit the cut in the keima in some fashion. The only question is if I should do so directly or play some preparatory moves first.


I agree, it is an overplay. Indeed, the previous white move was a bit of an overplay too.

This is why I think that it is an overplay: The usual direction of white in this joseki is to the side. (ie: north in this diagram )

White extends, black plays 2 like this, and there is a little tussle for corner eyespace:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ . . . . . c . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 1 . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ . . . . 2 . X 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 4 6 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------[/go]

...and then white counter-attacks the pincer stone with a, b. or c.


But when we put the joseki in the context of the game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X B B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O B . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . X 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...now the counter-attack on the pincer makes no sense because of the black power to the north.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Aphelion wrote:
...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Clearly fails for White
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 1 O 5 O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O 2 3 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
...


It is not at all clear to methat this isa failure for white:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 1 O 5 O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O 2 3 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Phelan
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Phelan »

I completely missed the cut in my analysis. :oops: There's a ladder there, but I'm expecting this instead:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 B O 4 O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O 1 2 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Not the best of trades, since it's gote, but it does give us substantial influence towards the middle and bottom.

An alternative would be to connect and fight it out, but that's what black wants:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36 Too weak to fight
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . B O 3 O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O 1 2 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
Good Go = Shape.
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Phelan
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Phelan »

It's Joaz's turn now, right?
a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Ooops...sorry...thanks for the reminder.

I approve.

I don't like some of the complications. Not because they are bad for us, but simply because they are complications. We're ahead. We want simplicity.
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