Teamovich 2

Redundant · Post by **Redundant** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:43 am

Teams are
Black:
redundant (1k)
threeve (10-9k)--AWOL

Jordus(8k?)
SinK (11k)
lesenv (13k)

White:
Marcus (2k)
robinz (10-9k)
Mnemonic (10k)
Rafa (13k)

We'll use the same rules as Teamovich 1.

BIC:

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:11 pm

Go Team!

Crush the invaders! :mrgreen:

SinK · Post by **SinK** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:31 pm

Good luck and have fun everyone.

My Nomination:

threeve · Post by **threeve** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:15 pm

Good luck everyone!

I like SinK's suggestion of playing for influence. But tengen is a pretty bold play imho, and I'm not particularly comfortable with that. Still, it could make for one hell of a game if we can pull it off.

Here is my suggestion:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This sets up a fuseki that I tend to play a lot:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . 5 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The first time I played it was by mistake. It was pointed out to me during a review of the game, and I had actually intended to play a 4-3, 3-5 shimari a line higher instead of the 5-3, 4-5 shimari. But this fuseki does lead to interesting positions and I've had good feedback from some stronger players who have used it recently as well. It invites white to invade the top right corner, which is exactly what we want in this case. It aims to make a either a very large corner or, after white invades and lives small, to create a thick, influential position on the outside aiming to develop the right and/or top in big ways.

This fuseki was mentioned during the magicwand v. topazg Malkovich game by Bill Spight, and though it is apparently uncommon these days it is still reasonable and I've had good luck with it.

Mnemonic · Post by **Mnemonic** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:52 pm

Glad this could happen and very happy to be a part of it

I wish my opponents good luck and a lots of fun.

WIC

obs

Redundant · Post by **Redundant** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:20 pm

Lesenv hasn't been on for a couple of days. I've sent him a PM about the game. If he hasn't suggested something in a day or so, I'll make a choice to keep/get the game going.

Redundant · Post by **Redundant** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:42 am

I'm going to go ahead and choose a move now. Once I saw this suggested, I decided on it right away.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For the team:

Observers:

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:04 pm

White internal:

My suggestion:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm2 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0.5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I know I tend to keep falling back on my preferred openings, so let's try something new. I've never tried a 5-4 point before, but it feels like it agrees with the way I like to play. Plus I feel an influence-based stone is best against tengen, as it works to negate black's intentions. Anyway, let's try to cause some early fighting if possible - this means I will suggest some terrible moves (as if I wouldn't anyway...), but I'm looking to learn something from this game.

Disclaimer: I know precisely zero joseki starting from the 5-4 point, so if that makes the captain nervous them I'm happy for this not to be chosen ;-)

Mnemonic · Post by **Mnemonic** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:48 pm

WIC:

My move

Edit: got ninjaed, but since robinz asked some question I will go into more detail. The 4-5 excludes a lot of influence while neglecting the corner, but it is flexible. If we need territory in a pinch we can make a shimari or even play this when we are invaded.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 . 5 . . . . $$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . $$ | . . 4 , . . 7 . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . .[/go]

robinz wrote:Disclaimer: I know precisely zero joseki starting from the 5-4 point.

I know a few. I'm not too concerned with the 3-4 invasion because we could play something like this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 9 7 . . . . . . $$ | . 8 6 1 0 . . . . $$ | . . 5 4 . 2 . . . $$ | . . 3 O . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X 1 . . . . . $$ | 5 O O X O . . . . $$ | . 3 X O . O . . . $$ | . 4 X O . . . . . $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

We get a good wall with some eye potential. The influence will compete with the tengen stone and we don't really have to worry about our group getting attacked because it is stable. Blacks group is enclosed pretty good and will not do anything for the rest of the game.
I'm a bit worried about the 33 invasion. There is a decent joseki that I know, but it depends on a ladder. :sad:

robinz wrote:Anyway, let's try to cause some early fighting if possible

I have a feeling fighting would benefit black, I could be wrong of course (Captain?)

At least this is going to be an interessting game :tmbup:

Mnemonic · Post by **Mnemonic** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:58 pm

More thoughts

If we decide to play in the corner there are several other option instead of the 4-5
1. The 3-3 and the 3-4: I don't think playing territorially is the way to go. Black gets really nice moves to press us down and build influence.
2. The 3-6 and 5-5: I've played the 5-5 before and don't think it can compete with the 4-5 and I have no idea what to do with the 3-6.
3. The 3-5: It also favors influence while neglecting the corner but it is not directed to the center but towards a side. What I mean is that we probably won’t want the play the taisha because of the tengen as a ladder breaker or any other squeeze play because they tend to start running fights. This leaves us with the keima press joseki. We would be building a wall toward the side so we should probably extend a some point, but that would mean we are building a own moyo which seems bad to me because black can gain a lot by invading.
4. The 4-4: The 4-4 is the only influence play left. I don't think ni-ren-sai would work well, because we cannot go for san-ren-sai and the 4-5 opens up a lot of option that we don't get with a hoshi. On the other side I am leaning really hard at playing cross positions at the moment, and in my experience that works better with symmetrical plays. So I was thinking about a 44 point as the 4th play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm1 With the game going something like this $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now applying the 123 principal, we could play the 44 point first, see what black does with their 3rd move and then choose a favorable position for the 4-5. My main reason why I don't nominate the 44 is that I want to give my Captain several options, and I think my other Teammate would nominate the 44.
5. Playing in the middle: Yes, I also thought briefly about this. I did not like it because the game would start to degenerate into a ddk slaughter fest that nobody wants to watch

In addition I don't know any decent way to approach the tengen stone.

The move I'm nomination is the 4-6. If they invade at the 4-4 we can double approach and if they try the 3-4 maybe this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . $$ | . . 5 , . 2 . . . $$ | . . 3 4 . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 1 . 5 . . . $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . .[/go]

If I write too much just say so, but we are a team and I want everybody to be on the same page

Also, I think this game will be epic

lesenv · Post by **lesenv** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:16 am

hi

sorry, i didn't have internetaccess for about a week. now i'm in, hope the internet-issue is solved.
good game, everyone.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:49 am

Let's see what Rafa has to say.

WIC:

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:00 am

Marcus wrote:
WIC:
Am I right in assuming my two suggestions to choose from so far are the 5-4 and the 6-4?

Mnemonic · Post by **Mnemonic** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:00 am

WIC:

Rafa · Post by **Rafa** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:13 am

My thoughts on so far.
WIC

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