New go words

General conversations about Go belong here.
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

jts wrote:The difficult thing about understanding these moves, though, isn't that
te and suji are Japanese, whereas handy and moves are English;
it's that learning to spot a tesuji is hard.
John Fairbairn wrote:Jargon is offputting, but it's possibly twice as offputting if it's foreign as well.
Yes and yes. And...
Mnemonic wrote:When I teach beginners I usually only start with one foreign word: atari.
...that's why when I teach raw beginners I use zero jargons.
No atari, no ko, not even "liberties," "capture race," or "eyes."
In only a few minutes, all the basic rules can be shown with zero jargons.
This can easily be done in English and Chinese, and perhaps this also works in most other languages.
The only exception is the name itself, Go.
John Fairbairn wrote:My sense is that they've realised that is a futile exercise...
Yes, and my sense is that it is also futile to try to teach people how to teach beginners.
At our Go club, my friends have seen me teach beginners for years (using no jargons),
yet when they start to teach a raw beginner, they are so happy to immediately throw around terms
like atari, ko, liberties, eyes, etc.
User avatar
topazg
Tengen
Posts: 4511
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:08 am
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Location: Chatteris, UK
Has thanked: 1579 times
Been thanked: 650 times
Contact:

Re: New go words

Post by topazg »

mw42 wrote:I detect sarcasm, but I don't quite understand. The English terms should be much easier to understand for native-English players. For example:

Sensei: This is a good move because it enlarges your moyo.
Student: Moyo?
Sensei: Territorial framework.

So, why not just substitute moyo for territorial framework or just framework?


Most of the understanding we gain comes from matching the words used to the context and their application, at least in my experience. A framework is fine if the audience understands a) the word framework itself, and b) the understanding of territory to a degree where "staking it out" makes some sort of intuitive sense. A beginner is unlikely to grasp "b", and a child may struggle with "a".

There are plenty of ways of addressing this, such as "this move helps these stone have more of an impact on this area over here" that start to get the concept of influence understood - or perhaps for a child: "imagine these stones are like your soldiers. You want to own this bit of land, so you start putting soldiers out on the border to mark it as yours".

Teaching means understanding the person you are teaching, having a grasp of the contexts (in life generally) that they are already familiar with, to which you can tie Go concepts, and the ability to make the process of understanding it as intuitive as possible within the constraints around the way they already like to think. Sounds easy? Ho ho.
User avatar
Mnemonic
Lives in gote
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:41 pm
Rank: KGS 7 kyu
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Mnemonic, dude13
Location: Dresden
Has thanked: 26 times
Been thanked: 22 times

Re: New go words

Post by Mnemonic »

No atari, no ko, not even "liberties," "capture race," or "eyes."

I agree that you should not teach difficult concepts like ko or capturing races until the beginner has enough experience to understand them. (I would even consider eyes to be too difficult for the first course) Since I only teach a fraction of the actual game I also only uses a fraction of the technical terms. Go is a complex game and you have to be careful not to rush your "student", but I do not believe that you need to shelter him a few Japaness terms. Especially since they have to learn them eventually so why not when you introduce them to the concept.

If you want to know more about my teaching methods I have outline them in this thread.

Maybe we should stop going of topic, but I sure would like to know how you teach go without explaining liberties? :)
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

Mnemonic wrote:I agree that you should not teach difficult concepts like ko or capturing races
No, you misunderstood. :) I have no problem teaching the concepts of ko, atari, liberties, and cap race.
The key is they can be shown without the use of any jargon: atari, ko, liberties, or capture race. :)

Teach the concept, not the jargon.
Mnemonic wrote:I would even consider eyes to be too difficult for the first course
Of course. I think it's better for the beginner to discover eyes on their own, for instance, during capture Go.
Mnemonic wrote:I sure would like to know how you teach go without explaining liberties? :)
Show it. Show the concept, without using the jargon liberties.
Imagine you have to teach Go on a video clip with no audio or any visual texts.
Imagine you have to teach someone Go and you cannot use any words (including sign language).
Imagine a child watching two adults play Go, and without any verbal communication,
figuring out for herself the concepts of atari, ko, and liberties.

If you can teach the basic rules without any words (this may take more than a few minutes :)),
now imagine how easy it is to do the same thing with words -- just don't use any jargon.
User avatar
jts
Oza
Posts: 2664
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:17 pm
Rank: kgs 6k
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 310 times
Been thanked: 633 times

Re:

Post by jts »

EdLee wrote:Show it. Show the concept, without using the jargon liberties.
Imagine you have to teach Go on a video clip with no audio or any visual texts.
Imagine you have to teach someone Go and you cannot use any words (including sign language).
Imagine a child watching two adults play Go, and without any verbal communication,
figuring out for herself the concepts of atari, ko, and liberties.

If you can teach the basic rules without any words (this may take more than a few minutes :)),
now imagine how easy it is to do the same thing with words -- just don't use any jargon.


I think our positions may be quite close. But surely you'd admit that, once you've taught them the concept without jargon, you want to assign a jargon-word to the concept so that you can invoke the concept later, to teach more complicated concepts?
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Re: Re:

Post by EdLee »

jts wrote:But surely you'd admit that, once you've taught them the concept without jargon...
Yes, everything is for the promotion of Go and for the benefits of the learning process.
At first, jargon is a hindrance so I avoid it; later, it is a short-hand and efficient way to communicate, so we use it. :cool:
mw42
Lives in gote
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:01 pm
Rank: 1k
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: mw42
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 59 times

Re: New go words

Post by mw42 »

topazg wrote:
mw42 wrote:I detect sarcasm, but I don't quite understand. The English terms should be much easier to understand for native-English players. For example:

Sensei: This is a good move because it enlarges your moyo.
Student: Moyo?
Sensei: Territorial framework.

So, why not just substitute moyo for territorial framework or just framework?


Most of the understanding we gain comes from matching the words used to the context and their application, at least in my experience. A framework is fine if the audience understands a) the word framework itself, and b) the understanding of territory to a degree where "staking it out" makes some sort of intuitive sense. A beginner is unlikely to grasp "b", and a child may struggle with "a".

There are plenty of ways of addressing this, such as "this move helps these stone have more of an impact on this area over here" that start to get the concept of influence understood - or perhaps for a child: "imagine these stones are like your soldiers. You want to own this bit of land, so you start putting soldiers out on the border to mark it as yours".

Teaching means understanding the person you are teaching, having a grasp of the contexts (in life generally) that they are already familiar with, to which you can tie Go concepts, and the ability to make the process of understanding it as intuitive as possible within the constraints around the way they already like to think. Sounds easy? Ho ho.


The following won't apply to someone who struggles with "a," a child in your example, but I imagine the following scenario: a teacher is trying to explain to his student what "moyo." So, he shows him three board positions with large moyos and points to each saying "moyo." I feel that the student, having no idea what a moyo is in any context may put his own incorrect meaning on the term that only has shades of the truth. In my mind, if you repeated this exercise to someone in category "a" and said "framework," because of the familiarity with the term, they will come closer to understanding the true meaning of the word.

No matter what you call it, it is true that your understanding of the concept becomes better with experience as most other concepts in go -- e.g. territory.
DrStraw
Oza
Posts: 2180
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:09 am
Rank: AGA 5d
GD Posts: 4312
Online playing schedule: Every tenth February 29th from 20:00-20:01 (if time permits)
Location: ʍoquıɐɹ ǝɥʇ ɹǝʌo 'ǝɹǝɥʍǝɯos
Has thanked: 237 times
Been thanked: 662 times
Contact:

Re: New go words

Post by DrStraw »

BaghwanB wrote:100% correct Daal. Linguistics is one of my "hobby" studies so that seem appropriate for cross-language terms. For those not in the know, Dr. Chomsky did tons of linguistic research before he became known for his political views.


I always thought of him as diverting to political views after he because known for linguistics. I have read a lot of his linguistic writings but barely touched his political stuff.
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
John Fairbairn
Oza
Posts: 3724
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:09 am
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 4672 times

Re: New go words

Post by John Fairbairn »

I imagine the following scenario: a teacher is trying to explain to his student what "moyo." So, he shows him three board positions with large moyos and points to each saying "moyo." I feel that the student, having no idea what a moyo is in any context may put his own incorrect meaning on the term that only has shades of the truth. In my mind, if you repeated this exercise to someone in category "a" and said "framework," because of the familiarity with the term, they will come closer to understanding the true meaning of the word.


Although I agree with the overall point you are making, it falls down a bit in the detail, and it is instructive to consider why.

First, to point to a "large moyo" and say "moyo" is as misleading as Tarzan pointing to Jane and saying "You Tarzan, me Jane". One has attributes the other just doesn't have, and we all know it's these attributes that make life interesting :)

Second, if we try to list the attributes that most kyu players associate with the word moyo, top of the list is probably "mine, all mine!", supported by mental images of signs saying "Keep out", "Minefield", "Fort Knox" or whatever. Usually the list stops there - no other attributes needed. But if a kyu player lists the attributes associated with the word framework, he gets a rather different mental image. Something rickety, perhaps, as full of holes as a colander. He probably tacks on more attributes, as a way of coping with these holes. Instead of "mine, all mine" he possibly thinks, "Oh, my gawd, how do I cope with this mess?" And that's a BIG improvement in thinking.

I suspect some people like to say moyo because the image makes them feel more comfortable - in their mind they already have a large territory. This sort of thinking is not limited to pros. I've just been reading comments by Sakata where he remarks with surprise on a move by Go Seigen. They have been playing in the lower left, then Go suddenly leaves the position there unfinished and switches to the upper right. Sakata says he would have first played so-and-so in the lower left (settling the position) in sente and then he could still turn to the upper right. He says he finds Go's style leaves too many possible moves, breeds confusion, and requires much more time to think. If Sakata had been a western amateur he would have been a "moyo" man. Go would have been a "framework" man. Don't make too much of that - the real point is simply that words have associations, and even associations have associations, and that we can be guided by these or led astray.

In that sense, saying "framework" can arguably be a great step forward from saying "moyo". But that still doesn't mean the usual attributes of a framework are correct. Consider this case. Suzuki Tamejiro, writing about how to count boundary plays (a little jewel, incidentally - he doesn't mention deiri or miai once) points outs that when the usual time to play boundary plays comes upon us, we will find that most plays will fall in the range of six points to fifteen or sixteen, and that nearly always the biggest of these plays are in the corners or on the side (and, digressing even further, the majority will involve either hanetsugi or capture of one stone). Contrary to what most amateurs think (he says), the big-looking plays in the centre are normally small. The way to handle territory in the centre is implied in this sentence of his:

"Territories made in a natural way as the result of attacking the opponent's stones by utilising a moyo/framework will be large, but territories made by simply surrounding an area will, in most cases, be small."

Now I would maintain, with great confidence, that the concept of "utilising" a moyo/framework plays no part whatsoever in the associations for these words of most kyu players, and maybe not too many dan players. They might get as far as thinking of attacking elsewhere in order to shore up a moyo/framework, but for many amateurs the moyo/framework is the end, not the means. Even for a framework thinker, a framework is like the timbers that mark out the walls of a house and the priority is most often to get the plaster up as quickly as possible to keep people out. But for a pro one prime way to utilise a moyo for attack is to tempt the opponent inside and (Takemiya's advice) don't kill - let him live small. I would speculate that such a strategy would be quite unthinkable for a standard moyo=piggy bank kind of thinker but, with guidance, would easily be within the compass of a framework thinker.

My conclusion is that framework is not ideal but is conceptually more versatile and a better choice for beginners. It could also be a useful change (because of word associations) for people who currently say moyo unless they can truthfully claim to understand already what is meant by utilising a moyo for attack.

New go words, yes. Old go words with proper meanings and properly considered associations, yes, yes, yes!
Kirby
Honinbo
Posts: 9553
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:04 pm
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Has thanked: 1583 times
Been thanked: 1707 times

Re: New go words

Post by Kirby »

John Fairbairn wrote:...

Second, if we try to list the attributes that most kyu players associate with the word moyo, top of the list is probably "mine, all mine!", supported by mental images of signs saying "Keep out", "Minefield", "Fort Knox" or whatever. Usually the list stops there - no other attributes needed. ...


If this is true, I wonder why this association is made. For example, if the word was totally foreign, say it was something like "blim-blahm" instead of moyo, would people still association "blim-blahm" with the same attributes as they do moyo? Or does the fact that the word has a meaning in another language have some sort of bleeding effect - which maybe is not properly translated?

If we were totally isolated from Japanese words, I wonder if it is different to adopt totally new words that have no meaning whatsoever than to adopt English words that have some types of attributes associated with them already.

I'm not really disagreeing with anything anybody's said here, by the way. I'm just stating some curiosities.
be immersed
tapir
Lives in sente
Posts: 774
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:52 pm
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 137 times
Been thanked: 155 times
Contact:

Re: New go words

Post by tapir »

jts wrote:Other English terms may help a little, but bring unwanted associations with them. "Knight's move," for an English speaker who plays chess, conveys the information about shape that keima conveys to a Japanese speaker who plays shogi. But for a beginner, it also suggests that the go pieces move about the board.


The problematic term is probably move then, not knight... The first introduction (german) i read about go, was talking about "hands" not "moves", but it is probably several decades too late to propose a change now.
User avatar
topazg
Tengen
Posts: 4511
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:08 am
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Location: Chatteris, UK
Has thanked: 1579 times
Been thanked: 650 times
Contact:

Re: New go words

Post by topazg »

I wonder if people even get positive vibes from moyo because it sounds like mojo :P
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

topazg wrote:I wonder if people even get positive vibes from moyo because it sounds like mojo :P
Doesn't mojo sound identical to moyo in certain languages with a soft J? :P
Bill Spight
Honinbo
Posts: 10905
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
Has thanked: 3651 times
Been thanked: 3373 times

Re: New go words

Post by Bill Spight »

John Fairbairn wrote: If Sakata had been a western amateur he would have been a "moyo" man.


Moyo, moyo man!
I want to be
A moyo man.

:)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
Bill Spight
Honinbo
Posts: 10905
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
Has thanked: 3651 times
Been thanked: 3373 times

Re: New go words

Post by Bill Spight »

Mnemonic wrote:When I teach beginners I usually only start with one foreign word: atari. First of because I teach atarigo and second of because there just is no real good translation in English (or German for that matter). When asked I usually translate it as check (Which is kind of wrong because that would suggest that it is very urgent to save that group, which usually isn’t the case.


En prise? ;)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
Post Reply